Here is my continued comments on fjtoth's (Frank's) post from December 4th:
fjtoth said:
I don't know why anyone would choose Psalm 45 to try proving that Jesus is Almighty God. Verse 7 says the Messiah God of verse 6 has a God.
I didn't choose Psalm 45, the inspired writer of Hebrews chose it to prove that Jesus is "God" in a way that is superior to the angels.
fjtoth said:
Almighty God does not have a God above him whom he worships. The very thought is blasphemous.
Since the Scriptures teach that The Father and The Son are two distinct Persons, The Son can be Almighty God (in relation to humans and angels) and still be subject to His Father. In a similar way, a human king's son can also be co-regent (or co-king) with his father, and yet, the son is still subject to his father. However, in the eyes of the people, the king's co-regent son IS the king.
Another similar example would be when Pharaoh made Joseph the head of Egypt -- in the eyes of the Egyptians, Joseph was THE ruler, everything Joseph says goes. Joseph had all the full authority and power of the Pharaoh. But Joseph was subject to Pharaoh. In relation to the people, Joseph was THE ruler of Egypt, but in relation to Pharaoh, Joseph was in subjection to Pharaoh.
Those examples are SIMILAR to the relationship between The Father and The Son, not exactly the same. No human relationship can be exactly the same as the relationship between God The Father and The Son.
fjtoth said:
Verse 7 also says the Messiah God of verse 6 has been anointed by the God he worships.
Very true.
fjtoth said:
God anoints persons to have them serve as his spokespersons, representatives or agents. Scores of times the Bible refers to the act of anointing, and in every case the anointing is of someone lesser than God, never of Almighty God himself. Even the title "Christ" (Anointed One) is an obvious identification of someone who is inferior to God.
Additionally, verse 7 speaks of the "companions" or "partners" of the God of verse 6, and it tells how he got to be "set above" them. He was not always above them. He got to be so because God, his God, anointed him. Almighty God has never had companions or partners as equals.
Psalm 45 is talking about God anointing Jesus above His HUMAN companions. It is talking about the time when Jesus has "emptied Himself," "humbled Himself," and taken the position and form of a SLAVE/SERVANT. According to Philippians 2:5-11, Jesus was NOT always a "SLAVE," but took that position and form when He humbled Himself and emptied Himself to become a Human Being. Philippians 2 also declares that PRIOR to "emptying Himself," Jesus existed in the FORM OF GOD. While on earth, Jesus had human "companions" or "partners" because He was 100% Human. However, He was also 100% Deity as Colossians 2:9 points out.
When Jesus decided to "empty Himself" and "humble Himself" and become a Human "Slave," He then, for a little while, became, as Man, "lower than the angels," and God later anointed Him above His fellow human companions, back to His prior position and glory far, far above all angels and humans, above the highest heavens.
Hebrews chapters 1 makes it clear that The Son existed prior to becoming a Man and that The Son existed with God before all ages, and that God created all ages through The Son, and that The Son created heaven and earth. Hebrews Chapter 2 makes it clear that The Son partook of flesh and blood because the people He needed to save were of flesh and blood, and that only as a flesh and blood Human could Jesus taste death for all men:
Hebrews 2:9 (ESV): But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV): Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
None of these Biblical facts in any way disprove or even weaken the Biblical Trinity teaching.
fjtoth said:
This is easy to understand if we are open-minded enough to the reasonableness of the insight offered by the NIV footnote. When Psalm 45 was written under inspiration, it was addressed to the then existing king upon David's throne. The Psalm applied also to his faithful descendants upon that throne, for every good king was to be obeyed in the same way one should obey God. The king spoke for God. When he spoke, it was as official as if God himself had spoken. He sat, after all, upon “the throne of the Lord.”
Even if all of that is true, it does not take anything away from the Trinity.
fjtoth said:
And this applied even more forcefully with regard to Jesus. Not only was he a descendant of David, but he was God's own genetic Son (as was Adam). He was not anointed with oil but with God's spirit, and his anointing was to the office of prophet and high priest as well as the office of king.
What does it mean to be "God's own genetic Son"? What exactly does that mean? A true genetic son is always the same nature as his father. A genetic human son is a human being. A genetic son of God should have the Nature of God.
How can a person be the "genetic son of God" and yet have a completely different, lesser, inferior nature than his genetic Father? A monkey cannot be the "genetic son" of a human being, can it? A mouse cannot be the "genetic son" of a dolphin, can it?
I do not understand what you mean when you say that Jesus is the "genetic son" of God. Please clarify.
fjtoth said:
I think it's arbitrary and capricious to insist that Almighty God is the "God" of both verse 6 and verse 7. To do so is to close one's mind to this very Jewish use of titles, a use that originated not with men but with God, as Jesus pointed out in John 10:34 with reference to Psalm 82:6. It is God himself who spoke of the ancient Davidic king as “God.”
Well, I think it's arbitrary, based on the entire Bible's teaching of Jesus, to declare automatically that each time the word "God" refers to Jesus, it has to mean that He is "God" in a lesser, inferior way than The Father, and cannot mean that the Bible says Jesus is the Almighty God.
fjtoth said:
It is also very misleading to insist that the God of verse 6 is Almighty God. For then we end up with Almighty God and Almighty God, which amounts to two Almighty Gods, and that is polytheism. In that way we reduce the sacred text to nonsense.
Well, according to your beliefs, as I understand them, we would definitely end up with polytheism -- in fact your beliefs are much more clearly polytheism than Trinitarianism.
The Biblical Trinity doctrine says that there is only ONE God who is Three Distinct Persons. Each Person has the full Nature of God, but there are not three gods, only One God.
Your belief, as far as I can see, teach that we should worship The Father as the Only True God, but then Jesus is also "God" because He is an inferior, lesser created representative of God, but that He also should be given relative worship as God's representative (which is idolatry according to Revelation).
So, you teach that there are two completely separate gods that we should give worship to, one Almighty and one lesser, inferior created god.
That, by very definition, is polytheism.
