The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped 218 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth) said:
Many other passages tell us that Jesus was given all the above authority and power following his birth and even more so following his resurrection.
Here is the list of verses that fjtoth used to "prove" that Jesus was only given His power and authority AFTER He was born on earth, and my comments are below each verse:
* You shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of his father David; and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will have no end. ... So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:31-33, 35)
That verse simply has the angel describing what Jesus will do in the future. It says nothing about whether or not He existed in Heaven prior to being born.
* The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, " Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." (Luke 4:17-21)
I don't see how this Scripture in any way "proves" that Jesus did not have His authority before coming to earth. It is just showing that, as a Human, God has anointed Christ with His Spirit, and thus, as a Human, Christ relied on the power of The Spirit more than on His own power.
* And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. (Matthew 28:18)
John 17:5 shows that following His resurrection, Jesus was RESTORED to His previous position of glory with The Father in Heaven.
* The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. (John 3:35)
That verse does not say WHEN The Father gave all things into His Son's hand, does it? How do you know this occurred AFTER He was born on earth?
* For just as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself; and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:26, 27)
This does not say anything at all about whether or not Jesus had authority BEFORE coming to earth. How do you know that The Father did not give this to The Son before creation, especially in light of John 1:3-4 and 1 John 1:1-3:
John 1:3-4 (ESV): All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
1st John 1:1-3 (ESV): That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Therefore, at what point did God grant The Son to have Life in Himself? It must have been prior to creation, wouldn't you agree?
* Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified . (Acts 2:36)
This is an interesting verse, and I will comment on it in the near future after I do some research and studying on it.
* He raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places , far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all . (Ephesians 1:20-23)
Yes, but in John 17:5, Jesus showed that His exaltation after His resurrection was actually a RESTORATION of His previous glory before the world began.
As a Man, Jesus was temporarily a little lower than angels, but, after His resurrection and ascension, was exalted by God The Father to His previous position above all angels and men.
However, it is true that now Jesus receives even more glory and honor because of His sacrifice and resurrection and His work on the earth, and more people know about The Son now than ever before (whereas, in the Old Testament, the Tri-Unity God was not as clearly revealed). Also, Jesus now has the added role of High Priest and Mediator of the New Covenant.
* I am the Living One; I was dead , and behold I am alive for ever and ever ! And I hold the keys of death and Hades . (Revelation 1:18)
How does that verse, in any way, prove that Jesus did not have authority before being born on earth?
In fact, in that Verse, Jesus is called "The Living One," which is very similar to God's title "The Living God."
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth),
You have repeatedly accused me (and all Trinitarians) of "ignoring" the verses of the Bible that "disprove" the Trinity, and only believing in the verses that support the Trinity.
Well, just to show that I do not ignore ANYTHING in the Bible, especially not verses that teach us about the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, below I am posting several verses where the Bible says Jesus is in subjection to His Father.
These verses in NO WAY weaken or lessen the Trinity whatsoever. I believe completely in the Trinity, yet I also believe every single one of the verses listed below! There is no contradiction once you take the time to find out what Trinitarians actually believe, as opposed to ASSUMING what they believe, and then arguing against what you ASSUME they believe. Here's the verses:
John 5:19-20 (NASB): Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless [it is] something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and [the Father] will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:26-27 (NASB): "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [the] Son of Man.
John 5:30-32 (NASB): "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "If I {alone} testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.
John 5:36-37 (NASB): "But the testimony which I have is greater than {the testimony of} John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
John 8:28 (NASB): So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [He,] and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 12:49-50 (NASB): "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment [as to] what to say and what to speak. "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
John 14:10 (NASB): "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Acts 1:6-7 (NASB): So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
Matthew 20:22-23 (NASB): But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able." He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on [My] left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
Matthew 24:36 (NASB): "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
John 14:28 (NASB): "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NASB): But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:23 (NASB): and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NASB): then [comes] the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
All of those Verses are THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE! And, all of those Verses agree 100% with the Biblical Trinity Doctrine! I do not ignore any Scriptures. Every Scripture is inspired of God.
However, that said, if you ONLY present the above Scriptures, without showing all of the dozens upon dozens of other Scriptures where Jesus is shown to be God and equal to The Father, and without showing all the verses that show that Jesus is the Creator who existed before anything else, then you are preaching a HALF-TRUTH, which is a WHOLE LIE.
Mr. Kim

Well now, is the "love" starting to fade from this discussion? ...............LOL
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth) said to me in this thread on December 12th, 2006:
Hi Undisfellowshiped,
You and I seem to approach Bible study from the same position. I believe you when you say you wish to let the Bible speak for itself and that we should allow the holy spirit and other sources to enhance the enlightenment we are hoping to receive.
I am glad to see you say that.
fjtoth continued and said:
You say you do not resent me or my beliefs. I believe that, and I assure you the feeling is mutual. I have several Bible study friends who are Trinitarians. When we get together, it is always a high point in our week. We learn from one another. There was a time when we tended to disagree more, but we have learned to avoid certain topics for the sake of peace. Not that we don't care about truth, it's just that we don't want to put wedges into our relationships. We know where each other stands, and we are content with that and with getting and giving the blessings that come from viewing one another as brothers in Christ.
There is one major, major, problem with what you said there. You said that you view those who believe in the Trinity (and hence, believe that Jesus is God Almighty) as your "brothers in Christ" and that your Trinitarian friends also view you as their "brother in Christ," even though you believe that Jesus was a lesser created being, and not God Almighty.
How can Unitarians and Trinitarians be "brothers in Christ" when they each believe in a DIFFERENT Jesus? That is an un-Biblical and un-Christian position to take, and it is extremely dangerous spiritually.
Did the Apostle Paul teach that you should view people as your "brothers in Christ" who preach a DIFFERENT Jesus or a DIFFERENT Spirit or a DIFFERENT Gospel message?
2 Corinthians 11:2-4, 13-15 (NASB): For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you [as] a pure virgin. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity [of devotion] to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear [this] beautifully. [...] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Galatians 1:6-12 (NASB): I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is [really] not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but [I received it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 (NASB): Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
Ephesians 4:25 (NASB): Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE [of you] WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
Did the Apostle John teach that you should view people as your "brothers in Christ" who preach a DIFFERENT Jesus?
1 John 4:1-3 (NASB): Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the [spirit] of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2 John 1:7-11 (NASB): For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ [as] coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into [your] house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
1 John 2:21-23 (NASB): I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
Did Jesus Christ Himself teach that you should view people as your "brothers in Christ" who preach a DIFFERENT Jesus?
Matthew 24:4-5 (NASB): And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Matthew 24:11 (NASB): "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matthew 24:23-27 (NASB): "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There [He is,]' do not believe [him.] "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. "Behold, I have told you in advance. "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, [or,] 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe [them.] "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 7:15-23 (NASB): "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth), you said on December 14th:

Contrary to what Trinitarians say about them, Jesus' enemies also knew that he was not God and never claimed to be. That is why they asked him, "By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?" (Matthew 21:23; Mark 11:28; Luke 20:2) They asked the apostles the same question, knowing that they too were not God himself and never pretended to be. (Acts 4:7)

SOME of His enemies did not know what to think about Him, but quite a few of the Pharisees DID INDEED believe that Jesus was claiming to be God Almighty, Yahweh, in the flesh, as you can clearly see from these verses:
John 5:18 (NASB): For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 8:58-59 (NASB): Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
John 10:29-33 (NASB): "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out [to be] God."
John 19:7 (NASB): The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out [to be] the Son of God."
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth) said:
I've got thousands of texts in the Bible that deny the Trinity, and you by comparison have a mere handful that seem to prove your point. But you hold on to these, despite the fact that the Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible and despite the fact that it wasn't even hinted at throughout the entire Bible period. It is a new doctrine introduced long after the apostles had died. Your problem is that you prefer the teachings of ininspired clergymen and a politician who brought them all together. You'd rather accept their word than the words of the Bible.
So, I can go on with this discussion for months to come. There is no end to what the Bible has to say about false doctrines such as the Trinity.
I await to see your further comments and your "thousands of texts in the Bible that deny the Trinity."
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth), you recently said this:
You know you are not being honest when you say I've claimed I can't answer "some" of your "strongest arguments" due to not wanting to start a new thread. I've said this only with regard to one facet of John 1:1. So, before you go any further, prove to me that you are not being dishonest. Tell me what others of "some" arguments I've said this about. Go ahead; I'm waiting.
Yet, you also said on December 15th:
Not all Bible believers view John 17:5 the way you do. Even some Trinitarians disagree with your view. I haven't explained my view of that text, so I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. As I said earlier, I wish to keep within the theme of this thread and not go off into other directions, which is where a thorough discussion of John 17:5 will take us.
So, you were unwilling to discuss John 17:5, and John 1:1, which are two of my strongest arguments for the Pre-Existence of Jesus as God Almighty. In fact, it seems that you do not want to discuss any Scriptures in depth about Christ's pre-existence. Why is that?
How can we possibly determine the truth about The Father and The Son's relationship if we cannot discuss whether Jesus existed before being born on earth, and if so, who and what was He before coming to earth?
UnDisfellowshipped

About Acts 2:36:
Acts 2:22-36 (NASB): ¶ "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' ¶ "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT {one} OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
Albert Barnes' Notes On the Bible (Acts 2:36):
God hath made - God hath appointed or constituted. See Act_5:31.
[...] Both Lord - The word “lord” properly denotes “proprietor, master, or sovereign.” Here it means clearly that God had exalted him to be the king so long expected; and that he had given him dominion in the heavens, or, as we should say, made him ruler of all things. The extent of this dominion may be seen in Joh_17:2; Eph_1:21, etc. In the exercise of this orifice, he now rules in heaven and on earth, and will yet come to judge the world. This truth was particularly suited to excite their fear. They had murdered their sovereign, now shown to be raised from the dead, and entrusted with infinite power. They had reason, therefore, to fear that he would come forth in vengeance, and punish them for their crimes. Sinners, in opposing the Saviour, are at war with their living and mighty sovereign and Lord. He has all power, and it is not safe to contend against the judge of the living and the dead.
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In what way did God "make" Jesus Lord and Christ?
Philippians 2:5-11 (NASB): Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
John 1:1, 14 (NASB): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 2:9 (NASB): But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 1:3-4 (NASB): And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
John 17:4-5 (NASB): "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
It is clear that the Scriptures teach that The Logos (The Word), the Pre-Human Jesus Christ, existed in "The Form of God," and was "God," but He willingly "emptied Himself," "made Himself nothing," and "humbled Himself." In other words, He laid aside His divine rights and privileges as God in order to become a Human Being in the position of a slave of God The Father. He took the position of a bond-servant or slave when He became a Human Being, which was temporarily a little lower than the position of angels in heaven.
Then, when God resurrected Jesus Christ, He restored Jesus to His previous full glory and His rightful position as Sovereign Lord over all (John 17:5; Hebrews 1:4). That is why Acts 2:36 says that God has "made" Jesus "both Lord and Christ," because The Father raised Jesus from the dead and exalted Him to His original position far above all angels and demons and humans at The Father's right hand above the heavens. John 1:18 shows the position Jesus had in heaven before coming to earth (as well as after returning to heaven):

John 1:18 (ESV):
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Matthew 28:17-19 (NASB): When they saw Him, they worshiped {Him;} but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
The full authority, power, position, privileges, and glory that Jesus had laid aside when He came to earth were restored to Him at His resurrection.
Acts 5:30-31 (NASB): "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:20-23 (NASB): which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly {places,} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Hebrews 1:13-14 (NASB): But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
1 Peter 3:21-22 (NASB): Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Psalm 110:1-4 (NASB): The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, {saying,} "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You {as} the dew. The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
God The Father is The Head of Christ and The God of Christ and The Lord of Christ. The Father is the Head within the Trinity. He is the One that appoints and anoints and sends The Son and The Spirit. He is the One who sent Christ to earth, and who anointed Christ as The Messiah, High Priest, Lord, Savior, King, and Mediator. The Father is the Initiator. The Son and The Spirit willingly subject Themselves and obey The Father. However, The Son and Spirit are in no way lesser or inferior than The Father, and They are all Three equal in Deity, qualities, attributes, glory, and authority and power (in relation to creatures).
abbagail

Ha! Wow, Undf!!! I found this thread again today 12/18/08 in a google search because the subject of "Jesus is Jehovah" is being discussed in another current thread... a whole whopping one year and nine months after this thread!

I never saw your reply to my above post until now! Thank you! So sweet!!! You may never see this reply either, but I wanted to say Thank you for all the kindness over the years. You know how I always admired your amazing endurance and stamina (posts wise) and your ability to post your threads full of scriptural explanations and support. You always reminded me of how I was when I was younger, lol.

I'm glad the hectic days for you have passed and you are settled down and things are better for you. And FWIW, just a few days ago cameo-d started a thread for everyone to "memorialize" their favorite "144,000 of JWD" (LOL) as a remembrance before this forum becomes "frozen in time" and the new JWN opens up, and I had "nominated" you for the reasons described above, and also because of that one little email you sent me in 2002 with your list of your favorite NWO news sites! I wouldn't have the understanding (ability to "fill in the gaps") of end times events that I have now if it hadn't been for you pointing me in the right direction, news-wise! I have always been so thankful for that! I spent almost five full years non-stop getting an education about all of that and posted close to 6,000 articles (with another thousand or two I never finished reading) to my small yahoogroup. I have a graphic/picture there which I "assembled together" recently and I think you might like it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THE_PARADISE_REPORTER/ (There's a full size copy in the PHOTOS section of the group, but that takes registration to access, but hey if you really like it, I can zap you a copy via email! I do love it, if I do say so myself! ;-) The group is "off for the winter" -- had to take a break on the news to catch up with other stuff.

While searching for something else here, I ran across an even OLDER reply of yours to me from SIX YEARS AGO, lol. I repied to that one, too: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/43425/3134191/post.ashx#3134191

So.... since your above post in this thread is almost two years old now, so what is "New" in late 2008? Things still going good? I hope so!

Take care brother!
/ag

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

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