The Science of Belief

by LittleToe 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  skyking

  LittleToe I believe the mind is an amazing thing. I believe that if one can convince himself that something will help then it helps. I take Cheyanne pepper I believe it helps me, so it does. My knee was hurting about 10 years ago, I thought I would not be able to walk by now so I took Glucosamine at high dosages and it totally helped me. I have been pain free for years, until about a year ago. I am about to do it again that is take the Glucosamine. I believe it will help so more than likely it will help me.

  I posted in one of your threads faith always trumps proof. I am no different. A study might come along and prove it was only my faith in the two treatments that helped me and Cheyenne Pepper and Glucosamine does not really help, But the effect on me personally is it did. Once a study proves too me it does not work, then from the time on, it will not work because I would know it was my mind playing tricks on me.

  I am open minded enough to admit this. I hope science proves that we do not need to take expensive drugs and that homeopathic remedies really work. If my life depended on a cure I would go to a DR. and use proven cures. I once wrote the library of Congress and got the % of people that go to the Hopsice clinics in Tijuana Verses normal proven cures and found that you have a better % of living IF YOU DO BOTH. I think at Mexico they treat the whole person and in the US normally they only treat the disease. This is the same for religion if you believe in it then it effects you deep down and faith trumps proof The best thing for a believer to do is not look at the proof against his religion becasue when you do it destroys the inner person. One might find himself sitting at the computer typing to a total stranger.
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  bernadette

  Lt

  I want to share something that really helped me when my chidlren were small, husband reaching out in the cong, and we were all behaving like maniacs because of the WTs. I discovered a gem of a book. It was called The heart of the Mind. A sort of NLP for dummies. It got me out of a really tight downward spiral. There is also a chapter at the end that describes how to engage one's subconscious to alleviate illness in onself. I never recommended it to anyone though because some considered it borderline demonic. But It definitely is not.
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  LittleToe

  Seems I discussed something similar, from the revese direction, some time ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/75954/1.ashx

  DDog:
  I browsed the article briefly - it's bloomin long!!!

  Belief has to rest on knowledge. As I stated earlier, I wasn't discussing credulity.

  Skyking:

  faith always trumps proof.

  I would suggest that "faith" is proof, a laHebrews 11. Where they contradict, the winner is whichever is strongest.

  Bernadette:
  NLP is a powerful tool. Cognative Behavioural Therapy is particularly in vogue at the moment. I recently got four of my staff trained in this.
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  Narkissos

  Interesting one Ross.

  Hypothesis: we don't have faith or lack it; we happen to playit sometimes, usually when we cannot do otherwise anymore; when our usual strategies and tactics for living fail or become too painful to keep on.

  [The antithesis between playing and (snobbishly?) abstaining reminds me of Matthew 11:17: "We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn."]

  We are still able to "suspend disbelief" and we enjoy it, every time we read a novel, watch a movie, etc. True, thus we mostly play by proxy. However by "passively" watching we do collect a number of "scripts," or alternative patterns of behaviour which we will (mostly unconsciously) act on in critical circumstances, when it is our turn to play. "Faith," as one of the roles, or a part in many, is no mere improvisation either. And of course it is culturally-conditioned (cf. ethnopsychiatry, which I suppose you were referring to among other things).
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  LittleToe

  Didier:As usual, an enlightening post. I especially liked this point:

  However by "passively" watching we do collect a number of "scripts," or alternative patterns of behaviour which we will (mostly unconsciously) act on in critical circumstances, when it is our turn to play.

  Wonderful stuff. It reminds me of Shakespeare: "All the World's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts..."
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  jgnat

  In my brief foray in to athleticism, I learned that visualizing can pre-form a pattern of action. For example, my swimming instructor talked me through a complex action. He asked me to visualize the entire pattern before I entered the water. I imagined myself executing it perfectly. I did, then I did.

  This proves to me that the mind and body interactions are so much more complex than command ---> action. We can pattern our minds for a complex series of actions before execution, thereby producing quick and flawless actions. I imagine this is what the olympic athletes do.

  I wonder sometimes though, if belief is a flaw in our makeup. A simple line in a novel or play, "This is for real, it is not made up." can create irrational hordes. It's almost if our minds CANNOT conceive that we've been deceived. I'm thinking of "War of the Worlds" and "Da Vinci Code."
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  Sad emo

  I wonder sometimes though, if belief is a flaw in our makeup. A simple line in a novel or play, "This is for real, it is not made up." can create irrational hordes. It's almost if our minds CANNOT conceive that we've been deceived. I'm thinking of " War of the Worlds " and " Da Vinci Code ."

  jgnat - this reminds me even of people who watch soap operas on tv and believe them to the extent that actors playing 'baddies' actually get hate mail and sometimes death threats.

  There seems to be a confusion of borders now, where people can believe everything they see, even if it's wrong. It undermines the faith aspect of belief - because faith is more about questioning and learning - hmmm isn't that what the physical sciences are about too?

  Thinking on my feet here! Faith leads to belief, even in the practical - you have to have faith in a doctor's abilities in order to believe that he can make you well. Maybe the real challenge is to seperate reasoned belief from 'blind' swallowing of presented ideas.

  LT - I'm on the 'receiving end' of cognitive behavioural therapy at the moment and it IS amazing. I'd never have even acknowledged the progress I'm making if I hadn't had it!! Tying into Narkissos' post, I never realised just how many learned patterns I had picked up from childhood or how I replayed them every time something triggered the same reaction as the original experience. Through the therapy, I'm learning to question my previously learned beliefs/behaviour and learning new 'scripts' to play.
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  daystar

  Good thread LT. I have little to add that wouldn't cause to take it in a slightly different direction.

  As an atheist in many respects, I still acknowledge, and use, the power of belief to cause change in conformance with my Will. I find the unconscious to be a very willing participant in the game.
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  LittleToe

  Daystar:About time the bl**dy cavalry showed up!!!

  Feel free to take the thread in whatever direction you please, before it fades out completely

  Jgnat:I had similar experience when learning high-board diving. The first time I tried a forward 1.5 turn full pike I kept landing badly. I went away and slept on it, and came back and started executing them, perfectly.

  Emo:
  Glad you're finding CBT useful. It can be intense and proscriptive, but there's no doubt about the results. It's amazing just how much stuff we get programmed with, over the years, huh?
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  nicolaou

  Great topic Ross.

  I agree that the power of our minds is often overlooked. Often, if I've been working on a difficult piece of code, I'll go to bed frustrated but as I unwind, relax and drift away to sleep those awkward snippets I'd been sweating over for hours fall into place and the solution presents itself. I'm not kidding! I've even learned not to worry about writing it down before I nod off as I know I'll remember it once I wake up - my mind has done all the hard work.

  I loved your write up. I printed it off and picked it up three or four times through the day. I would just like to comment on a couple of things though. Who said "belief and science are mutually exclusive"? Surely belief is essential to science! All good scientists have a belief (or hypothesis) which they then go on to test. Beliefs are thus confirmed or discarded though this can often take decades. Perhaps you were referring to the common 'refrain' that religious belief and science are mutually exclusive?

  If so I'd still insist that they are not! I for one am happy to submit religious belief to scientific scrutiny.

  You work in a profession I admire very much and I have no doubt of your grasp of this area of mental wellbeing and I agree with you that "our understanding of the "inner" world is atrophying through materialist neglect". This is lamentable. I also hope you don't think of me as someone who has 'heaped abuse upon those daring to study such a "worthless" science'. It most certainly is not worthless, in fact I find myself a little jealous of you in that you can provide qualified help to those who need it.

  It's just the god and religion thing Ross, guess we'll never see eyball to eyeball on that one . . . . . .

  Nic'

  I recommend, The Control of the Mind by Prof' R H Thouless and Stigma by Erving Goffman