Does God have any one organized religion he supports?

by general 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • Xirian
    Xirian

    drew sagan wrote:

    I think it is important for you to realize that you have a very JW bias. You still think things logically should be seen the way that they teach. The problem is that they get alot wrong and shouln't be trusted. It's time to start from scratch.

    Don't go to the Bible to find what you want it to say. Instead let it tell you what it has to say.

    Put those JW glasses on the shelf.

    I would have to agree with your thoughts here. I think I have put many of the JW beliefs behind me (at least the ones that are no longer beneficial to me) and see things completely different than some of the people here and to tell you the truth, it sort of surprised me a little bit.

    I personally do not revere the bible and if someone comes at me trying to back up the bible, by using the bible, it really doesn't make sense to me. If I wanted to prove I wasn't a liar, I certainly wouldn't expect you to believe my pleads that I'm not. I would like it if you did, but I wouldn't expect that you did. I would try to find proof from another source about my credibility. So all of these quotes from the bible after my last post, really had me a bit puzzled.

    I personally don't understand God's truth, because I don't believe there is only one deity controlling the lives of all the people on the earth. I also don't believe that the God's truth has been proven to me without a doubt yet. So it is difficult for me to see the bible as anything less than a book of guidance for people living in another time and another place, a geneologic documentation of the people of the time and a political commentary, sometimes embellished or put into a fictional perspective for the protection of the writer (Revelations in particular) against the ruler of the times.

    I believe everyone has a spiritual personality. I think religion is there to help you accept it and nurture it. I don't think religion is there for any other reason. I think one's spirituality can be nurtured without even knowing religion. It is something that many people tend to suppress especially those in religions such as the JWs because they are being bogged down with all of this accessory information coming at them and they're all receiving it at the same pace no matter what their learning curve, the door-to-door activities, the studies, conventions ect... It seemed that the JW religion would not even allow me the time to find my spirituality even if I had wanted to. Spirituality is subjective and all creatures contain it and I don't feel that you need to have God's spirit within you to work with your own. The word truth in relation to religion is a misnomer.

  • Abandoned
    Abandoned

    I have a hard time believing that God has a preference with regards to religions. I think he either loves or hates them all equally. I could see him doing either based on how each has their share of hypocrisy and duplicity.

    I sure don't have any idea why an all wise creator would allow someone to represent him with falsehood, but since that appears to be the case, he must have a purpose.

    On the other hand, I think the kind of worship that really honors him doesn't need a name, a headquarters, a governing body, a charter, a house of worship, or any of the other accoutrements common to today's religions. I think that the kind of religion that honors and pleases God is seeing the opportunity to cheer someone up and taking it, sharing what you have with other people, avoiding pretense, and living life to the full. I think God is honored by us enjoying his handiwork and being willing to help others enjoy it. :-)

  • Xirian
    Xirian

    On the other hand, I think the kind of worship that really honors him doesn't need a name, a headquarters, a governing body, a charter, a house of worship, or any of the other accoutrements common to today's religions. I think that the kind of religion that honors and pleases God is seeing the opportunity to cheer someone up and taking it, sharing what you have with other people, avoiding pretense, and living life to the full. I think God is honored by us enjoying his handiwork and being willing to help others enjoy it. :-)

    Now that sounds like a God I might be willing to worship.

  • choosing life
    choosing life

    General-Note in Galations 1:13-24-Paul did not even go to Jeruselam for years after his conversion. Being an apostle chosen by Jesus directly, would he not have met with the "governing body" of that time if there was such central control of the congregations? Yet he distinctly says in vs. 17 he did not and three years later he went to visit Cephas, but saw no else except James.

    The myth of a governing body is contrived to gain control over people today. In all actuality, the early congregations met usually in small groups in homes. Of coarse, the apostles were given special gifts and called pillars, but they were never meant to be the masters of another's faith.

    You are a faithful and wise servent if you serve your master wisely. And how you treat all others, determines how Jesus will treat you because they are all his brothers. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? (Luke chapter 10) Who really is your neighbor?

    God always has and still does work through individuals. Romans 14:12 says " each of us will render an account for himself to God." So there never has been and still isn't a "governing body" or one organization that God is using. It reminds me of a line in a song-"In the end there is one dance you'll do alone."

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi General,

    I can say as a Catholic, that God does not look at organizations as though they are living things that he must work through, with, by, or around. He does see the Church (which is universal and includes all who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior) as the living body of Christ. The universal Chruch is really much more like a family than a heirarchial organization. Whether one is part of the Church as a Catholic, or Orthodox, or some variation of Protestant or completely independent of any communion of faith, one is still seen as part of the Body of Christ. I do believe that the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions have the longest and best preserved Christian history and traditions of any Christian communion. But that belief also, buy its nature, is universal (catholic) has to be inclusive of other communions. The concept of "organization" is better suited to business entities like Wal-Mart, AmWay, or a book publishing corporation. It is foreign to the Family of God. It is a shame that the Watchtower Society extols the word "Organization" to a status equal to that of Yahweh.

    Jim Whitney

  • oldflame
    oldflame

    I don't think God supports any religion per say. I certainly don't believe he micro manages any of them either like some think he does. But the real key here is not religion, religion is something created by man who is imperfect. What I believe God supports is faith in the Christ and that he died for our sins on the cross, not something that is created by a man who has habits of misinterpeting or adding to the scriptures.

  • bonnzo
    bonnzo

    auld soul

    wow! what you said regarding matt 24:45-47 was en eyeful. i've never looked at that scripture that way, even tho' i've always thought that scripture was applied to each individual christian, simply because the word "class" is inserted by the WTS. you provided scriptural proof of that! thanks!

    also to the general: who says that the WTS interpretation of the "food" and who the "domestics" are is correct? couldn't it just be an illustration showing that the individual slave that does what a slave should do will be rewarded?

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    I have written about this at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/organization.htm

    If you look at God's dealings in the past he never had a sole organization. Prior to the Israelites he dealt directly with individuals, good and bad - Able, Cain, Noah, Joseph etc. During the time of Israel he also dealt directly with individuals, such as Job, and also David when he was living with the Philistines.

    During Christian times Jesus and the Holy Spirit dealt directly with individuals, such as Paul, who went straight on missionary work, rather than going first to meet with the apostles in Rome.

    At Mark Jesus shows that belonging to the group of apostles was not necessary to be classed as belonging to Christ. .Mark 9:38-42 “38 John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” 39 But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; 40 for he that is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives YOU a cup of water to drink on the ground that YOU belong to Christ, I truly tell YOU, he will by no means lose his reward. 42 But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea.”

    Jesus promised that he would direct his followers no matter how few were gathered together.

    Matthew 18:20 “Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst!”

  • spiceant
    spiceant

    I don't know if it aply's but i believe the parable of the mustard seed that grows into a tree aply's:

    Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."- Matthew 13:32

    What are these birds? Don't practically all birds eat seeds? I have come to believe that he explained that any group that became large would become corrupted if it wasn't already. I suppose it is reasonable to assume that the bird's are just there to take advantage of the tree and all along eat its seeds and fruit.

    regards

  • mama bear
    mama bear

    The General -- I am struggling with this question as a result of my decision to delve deeper into the bible and my desire to truly ascertain the connatations of its verses. I have heard people on a regular basis in school call organized religion a sham and the belief in a God a sham. These are the very same people who glorify rationalistic reasoning based upon a materialistic philosphy as being surpreme. To me this view is one of arrogance and the many philosphers one reads such as Marx and Rousseau only present their views in terms of idealism. Even so, I can't see how people could even begin to hold such a view in the first place if one were to think abstractly about it, therefore, how can imperfect man produce perfect solutions would they not be inherently imperfect as a reflection of his own imperfect state?

    I am really hung up on God's use of a faithful and discreet slave and the many biblical examples of using sherpards to manage his flock (Such as the apostle Paul overseeing the Christian congregations in the Meditterrean Region) on earth as shown by Matt. 24:45. To me this shows us that God does have an organization here on earth.

    Does anyone have any insight they would like to share on this matter?? --

    You know, it is good that you are still 'thinking' and now are free to employ 'critical' thinking as you struggle with what feels right for you. Having spent 3 decades as a Witness I am comfortable in my own feelings that 'organized' religion or 'religion' which exists for control of anyone for that matter is not for me. I believe in Christ, in the Father and very much in the Holy Spirit. I believe it is clear as to how we are guided if we seek out, if we ask, if we knock, if we have faith, if we believe, if we hope. If you are seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit and are using the Bible and are willing to let God teach you and not man then you will be led to where it is comfortable and feels right for you. You may need more years in life to see that even with the best of intentions when you get a group of people together for any purpose and must impose rules in order to maintain order you will find those who seek to abuse the power the rules sometimes can be twisted to convey. With God you don't have to worry about that because it is a given that HE is the rule maker, enforcer, and the one who impositions the consequences of not meeting the rules. But, unlike us, HE is in a prime position to guide us away from places where we would fall into temptation to abuse the system, where HE can teach us through HIS loving, gifting and patient ways to come to HIM for guidance and to rely fully on HIM for the corresponding answers we seek. HE is not harsh as mankind has demonstrated themselves to be or as man has painted HIM to be for that matter. Yes, HE is a Judge, but John plainly states in 1 John 4 that the kind of love that is love of God is free from fear and definitely from fear of reprisal. Perhaps the single most detrimental thing the WTS is guilty of is the concept of God they pummel into their members by picturing HIM as some demerit keeping, judgemental King who is tapping his fingers impatiently waiting for some cosmic clock to tick down so he can anihilate the world and exercise his wrath over it! Yet, Peter says God is patient not wanting any to perish. The FDS have their flock cowering in mortal fear while Jesus has HIS arms outstretched in invitation to COME UNTO HIM! The WTS is the antithesis of the God of the Bible yet very representative of the destructive force 'organized' religion can wreak. If that is not enough, look at the 'radical' elements of other organized religions and how they are meting out their own idea of justice for alleged infractions of their organized religious beliefs. And they too claim to all live by the 'word' of their 'holy writings'. Even where the religion seems benevolent enough the people wind up living in such distress because of their religious beliefs the standard of living is sub-standard! I honestly cannot see a single philosophy out there that stands out as exemplary of what most people would immediately recognize as 'good' in all aspects and in all ways. It just doesn't exist.

    I abhor religion and especially organized religion. I believe there are some benefits to the various organizations but there are humanitarian organizations who do as much as 'religious' ones and civic groups who acccomplish as much as churches do all over the US and I am certain in other countries as well. Looking at the corruption which naturally follows power it is naive to believe there will be any organized church or religion which will be beneficent, altruistic, or philanthropical 100 percent of the time with no malice, with no self serving, with no greed ever present. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely! We have seen it in bodies of elders in congregation after congregation in imitation of the governing body ... and in the leadership of other churches. It is not unique to the WTS.

    Paul was a good Christian, no doubt about it. But, he was a pharisee for much of his life and let's face it, they were known for their 'rule' making and their 'organization'. He was not only the apostle to the nations he was a grand organizer, a man with a gift to get people to do what he felt they should. He was obviously a leader. The man for the job at the time. Jesus' on the other hand...a real study in how you draw people to you. Give, give, give! Ask nothing in return but to do the same. The extent of his rule making was to have us love God with everything we have and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. The extent of his organization was to share and share alike. Do unto others ... He was willing to do the hard stuff so that we could have life and that eternal. I figure I should take HIM up on HIS offer to 'follow HIM'. He knows the hierarchy and how it works and has the power and authority to accomplish for us what we need in life, now and forever.

    My thoughts,,,,,

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