by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends
No one has anwered my question: (first define hope-less-ness)... the claim again was: If you are an atheist... what is your hope?
Didn't scully answer this question?
I'm not exactly an atheist. I'm more of a pantheist. I also believe that the spirit carries on after the body dies.
S
My Bad!!! Scully DID answer the question but her answer was not the (really stupid) one that I needed to make my point... so I'm waiting for another one. :) I'm not familiar with the term pantheist... time to go Googling.
Scully DID answer the question but her answer was not the (really stupid) one that I needed to make my point...
Ah, so you do have an agenda. I figured as much. Sorry to hear that my "not the (really stupid)" answer wasn't what you were looking for.
Sheesh.
Gordan
You seem like an intelligent chap, would the answers you've had from the atheists here lead you to question your pre-suppositions? I mean every one of the replies you've had should lead you to realise that atheism isn't quite the bleak existence you supposed. I mean hopeless is a pretty charged term to use, I have never felt hopeless because of my atheism and I very much doubt you will find one who does. Is my hope so meaningless because my hopes are based around what I can acheive in this life and not in some supposed afterlife?
I also wonder how you feel your evangelizing compares to what you claim atheist's do when they present a rationalist worldview.
By the way I would try hard not to reply with the 'I've been where you are now' line, if you don't mind!
Hi Caedes... it's a pleasure to meet you.
would the answers you've had from the atheists here lead you to question your pre-suppositions? I mean every one of the replies you've had should lead you to realise that atheism isn't quite the bleak existence you supposed.
I agree that atheism is a far superior lifestyle than that afforded by most religions... There is more freedom, happiness, and yes "Hope". I've obviously done a poor job of expressing that there exist a spirituality separate from religious dogma. I'm not sure why, but people seem to keep making reference to the "God" they learned about while participating in some organization. Even though they fully realize that that organization lied to them... Why is it so difficult to realize that THEY LIED ABOUT GOD TOO!!!
"but doesn't the bible say".... Stop! Didn't the organization give you THAT TOO?
I also wonder how you feel your evangelizing compares to what you claim atheist's do when they present a rationalist worldview.
I think there is a difference between answering a question about one's personal beliefs and making an unsolicated insult towards someone that is in their own searching process. Insinuations that another person's belief are foolish and that their consideration of something unknown makes them less intelligent than those that have resigned themselves to "reality" as they know it. I started this thread in response to those actions.... All of my commenst are here for review, If I have ever offered my beleifs in an unsolicted, unwelcome, or ceorcive manner... then I am guilty of what I criticize and a hypocrite.
I also wonder how you feel your evangelizing compares to what you claim atheist's do when they present a rationalist worldview.
Again, It's NOT about the atheist viewpoint...If that is satisfactory for the person that beleives it ... GREAT! It's about (some atheists) arrogance and lack of tact.
How does my evangilizing compare?...... It is highly speculative, highly irrational, but just as viable as anyone else's opinion... I just hope it's not delivered in an offensive manner.
By the way I would try hard not to reply with the 'I've been where you are now' line, if you don't mind!
Point taken..... and well! Dale Carnagie????
Thanks!
Quoting (not accurately) from Phoebe to Ross on the show Friends during a debate about evolution. (I knew that show had all the answers!!)
"Wasn't there a time when the world's greatest minds thought that the atom was the smallest thing in the universe.... until they opened one up and all this stuff came flying out? Are you telling me that you are SO arrogant that you don't even consider the remotest possibilty, that there might be some teeny-tiny chance that scientist are wrong about this too? Is THAT what you're telling me? If so, I think maybe it's time you put "Ross" under the microscope!"
Be careful with this one. Using your example shouldnt we ask God Believers (Theists) this question: "Are you so arrogant that you dont even consider the remotest possibility that there is no God?"
So G man I think we have come to the real questions and the real differance between our mind set.
"Where do we cross over into belief when considering the currently unproveable or unknowable?"
I choose to eliminate the entire concept of "belief" from my thinking. I choose to accept facts based on currently provable (Via Scientific principles) realities while leaving the door open for future revelations and proofs. Thats the beauty of Science (not Scientists), it is self correcting. It never says I HAVE FOUND THE ULTIMATE TRUTH. Instead it says, Here is what we know now. It asks via peer review and other processes to be tested and checked, over and over. That is why we NOW know that the Atom is made of smaller particles. Someone kept checking the results looking for more data. Theism does not do this. It starts with an asumption and then seeks out facts that can prove the original belief. If Theism comes up against facts that disagree with the "God" question it will ussually deny them or atribute it to "Gods Mystery". I can give many examples of this but my favorite is the "God put Dino bones in the ground to test us". Where do you draw the line on belief. Do you believe everything? If not what constitutes proof? That is where the debate can occur.
I dont "believe"that I am a human living on planet Earth, I AM a human living on a planet Earth. Belief has no effect on this reality. It either is true or it is not true. I can believe that I am a fire truck but unless I have wheels and a red light on top and a large ladder I am not a fire truck. What I believe has no value in the discussion of whether or not I AM a fire truck. (By the way I am not a Fire Truck..I am a nice yellow Taxi)
Its simple really, either God exists or he does not exist. I think you have chosen to believe that he does based on the "evidence" that binds your reality I.E. The change of your "personality". But consider for a minute (like the atomic example above) what if you are wrong? Would this really destroy your world view? Would this change your personality or would it present you with a new challenge. The challenge of determining what within you had the power to effect the positive change you expierianced.
Free thinking, creativity and flights of fancy often lead to new concepts and thoughts about many things including the nature of reality. But to have validity they need to be proven. If you believe everything then you have a logical problem Example: "I believe that the Easter Bunny hid these eggs" ~~ "I believe my parents hid these eggs" Both cannot be true (Unless the Easter Bunny is in cahoots with your parents) Wouldnt it be better to hide out the night before and spy on the Egg hider (preferably with a video camera).
Asheron
Daniel -P,
LOL
Gordon,
Nice analogy. I have a son of 5 years old and he certainly shows this kind of behavior from time to time. However, when I try to invoke my help I have a few tools at my disposal:
1) I simply ask him if I can be of any assistance. 2) Depending on the necesity of getting the things fixed, I step in, talk to him and show him how to do it. Let him do it again and so he learns by getting a little help. 3) variant on 1 and 2: I show him step by step while discussing the issues he needs to look.
Some weeks ago, he was looking for me but I was outside doing some gardening. He ran around inside and outside looking for me. It went from calling to shouting and panicking, because I did not hear him and I was not aware he was looking for me quite some time. Of course, if I had heard him, I would have answered him. Any father would do that, no?
I would communicate in such a way that he can understand me! by speaking loud enough to be heard, by using words he is capable of comprehending, by example and directing his eyes so he sees what he needs to see. And I would do that every day.
When I am gone on business travel, I use an array of devices like webcam, email, telephone, etc, in order to communicate with him daily. His first steps on the road in using these devices were of course guide by me. I taught him the principles, he is clever enough to expand on that.
In contrast..that entity you are relating to now, is a peculiar fellow. Not able to communicate with you untill you are ready, yet he created it all.....artisan for sure.
Cheers
Borgia
Hey Asheron,
Using your example shouldnt we ask God Believers (Theists) this question: "Are you so arrogant that you dont even consider the remotest possibility that there is no God?"
Absolutely!
I choose to eliminate the entire concept of "belief" from my thinking. I choose to accept facts based on currently provable (Via Scientific principles) realities while leaving the door open for future revelations and proofs. Thats the beauty of Science (not Scientists), it is self correcting. It never says I HAVE FOUND THE ULTIMATE TRUTH. Instead it says, Here is what we know now. It asks via peer review and other processes to be tested and checked, over and over. That is why we NOW know that the Atom is made of smaller particles. Someone kept checking the results looking for more data. Theism does not do this. It starts with an asumption and then seeks out facts that can prove the original belief. If Theism comes up against facts that disagree with the "God" question it will ussually deny them or atribute it to "Gods Mystery". I can give many examples of this but my favorite is the "God put Dino bones in the ground to test us". Where do you draw the line on belief. Do you believe everything? If not what constitutes proof? That is where the debate can occur.
I dont "believe"that I am a human living on planet Earth, I AM a human living on a planet Earth. Belief has no effect on this reality. It either is true or it is not true. I can believe that I am a fire truck but unless I have wheels and a red light on top and a large ladder I am not a fire truck. What I believe has no value in the discussion of whether or not I AM a fire truck. (By the way I am not a Fire Truck..I am a nice yellow Taxi)
I cannot disagree with your logic or reasoning on ANY of this.... ( If you want to be a Taxi that's fare... but at the rate you're going, you'll live a checkered life )
However, one of my points is that there are possible limitations to this line of reasoning. We have established a "rule" for what a firetruck is. You can accurately say that you are or are not a firetruck because you do not qualify, according to the rules. Mankind has had numerous "rules" for what a "God" creature must be (some of these are absolutely ridiculous) but even if all known rules are discarded, we still make some requirements that "have to be met". Saying that "God cannot exist" implies that he has not met some rule based upon tactile, visual, or logical markers.
If you had a brother, that died at sea, you had no pictures of him, nothing with a signature, just a few items that you "said" that he built, and a few people that claimed to have met him would I have the right to believe that he was possibly nothing more than a figment of your imagination.... certainly. I might demand some proof because I had never seen him and even the things that you claimed he made had other (possible) explanations..... but YOU would not need anything else because you knew him, communicated with him, and loved him. It is the same way for those that have experienced God. Would your claims about him hold up in court? Would that ever changed how you felt about him?
Its simple really, either God exists or he does not exist. I think you have chosen to believe that he does based on the "evidence" that binds your reality I.E. The change of your "personality". But consider for a minute (like the atomic example above) what if you are wrong? Would this really destroy your world view? Would this change your personality or would it present you with a new challenge. The challenge of determining what within you had the power to effect the positive change you expierianced.
You're right... it's very simple. Either I am right or I am dillusional.
If I'm right... Great!
If I'm wrong... I would probably never know.
If I'm right... I have more joy, more hope, a better quality life now, and a chance at immortality.
If I'm wrong... I have more joy, more hope, a better quality life now
The thought of returning to agnostic beliefs just doesn't have the appeal that it used too.....
Plus, my feelings are based on a bond so strongly and innately a part of me, I would probably be more likely to deny the existence of George Bush (wishfull thinking) someone that I have never met and that I could probably rationalize another explanation for all the evidence supporting him. Than to ever deny my friend, my father, and my God..... I don't know how else to put it... Once he "bonds" with you... it changes everything! And it's all in a Good way!!!
Hi Borgia,
I've stated many times that it may not be practical to put human constraints on non-human beings... but you made a good point. So for the sake of this discussion, (and since I started this whole analogy mess) lets place God in the role of a Human father.
Nice analogy. I have a son of 5 years old and he certainly shows this kind of behavior from time to time. However, when I try to invoke my help I have a few tools at my disposal:
1) I simply ask him if I can be of any assistance Is it possible that this was implanted in us at some point in our lives? 2) Depending on the necesity of getting the things fixed, I step in, talk to him and show him how to do it. Again, is it possible that this has been done for us at some point, perhaps through a third party, "instinctual" reasoning, or by blocking things that were beyond our control? Let him do it again and so he learns by getting a little help. **same point** Are Moms (possibly) a gift from God? 3) variant on 1 and 2: I show him step by step while discussing the issues he needs to look. **same point**.... who can say for sure?
Some weeks ago, he was looking for me but I was outside doing some gardening. He ran around inside and outside looking for me. It went from calling to shouting and panicking, because I did not hear him and I was not aware he was looking for me quite some time. Of course, if I had heard him, I would have answered him. Any father would do that, no?
Yes, I think that any loving father would respond to their child's call... perhaps even ANY child's call.
I would communicate in such a way that he can understand me! by speaking loud enough to be heard, by using words he is capable of comprehending, by example and directing his eyes so he sees what he needs to see. And I would do that every day.
You might even want to stay so close to him that he could always hear you.... anytime, day or night.
When I am gone on business travel, I use an array of devices like webcam, email, telephone, etc, in order to communicate with him daily. His first steps on the road in using these devices were of course guide by me. I taught him the principles, he is clever enough to expand on that.
So you are still "with him" even when he is seperated from you by some great distance.
In contrast..that entity you are relating to now, is a peculiar fellow. Not able to communicate with you untill you are ready, yet he created it all.....artisan for sure.
You've stated that you would answer your son when he called... Your son know's who you are, recognizes you, and talks to you... he loves you and needs you. You love him and you will always make sure that he can grow but that he is never in "over his head"
Will you "always" answer him, immediately, whenever he asks you a question? For example: You're watching him take a Math test in school and he waves you over?
Will you "always" speak to him in words that he can understand...even when you don't want him to understand something yet?
Will you always respond immediately whenever he fears that he is in danger? For example: You're teaching him to ride a bike, your hands are on both sides (just inches away) he cannot see you behind him but he's still saying "Dad, don't let go or I'll fall" and you actually let go some time ago and he is balancing himself..... Do you grab the bike because he asked?
2 more scenarios.. A bit more extreme:
Your son is 10 and has climbed up a tree that you told him (repeatedly) to never touch... it is covered in poison ivy. He's only 4 feet off the ground and you can see that he is more than capable of safely coming down by himself..... he is saying, "Dad, come get me down". Do you do it?
Your son has now turned 17... decided that you must hate him and that he hates you... he even says, "You are not my father" or " I didn't ask to be born" He still lives in the room that you provided for him but never says thank you, pays for anything he eats, doesn't even clean his room or wash his own clothes... he even feels that it IS HIS room. Something that he has a right to and can even lock you out of. He wants nothing to do with you, your instructions for him, your care... nothing.
He's out one night in an area you've told him never to go and gets arrested for assaulting a little old lady. Finally! He calls you and says, Dad can you bail me out? Do you drop everything and immediately "right all his wrongs" or do you let him experience "some" of the consequences of his actions.
gordon,
hi my man. i read your explanations of your experience in transformation. i find them interesting. very much so. you appear to be very at peace with the place you have come to. and this i am happy for you for.
i can say this with good intentions toward you, because i too believe that i have had similar experiences, though in my interaction with the divine i have in the end only found nature, and manifestations of universe-nature, whatever they may...natural none-the-less. and in this power, i as a human hold to two states of mind simultaneously, without reservation or guilt: in one hand my biology, and in the other my sphere of consciousness. in one hand the empirical mind of self consciousness, bloating ever outward in structural abstraction, and in the other hand the trembling child's-mind of a new consciousness shaped as it is like a flower, and bathed in light that is not so much described as a color, as much as the understanding that it is just so, Light.
i believe that when people describe their interactions with God, and the oneness and peace associated with these experiences, they are describing an awakening in themselves to their true nature, their true identity as god's themselves. in one world it is called evolution to another sphere of consciousness, just as we have evolved in the past to the one we inhabit now. and in other worlds, it must be described in other ways, and i will let them represent themselves if they are indeed any different than i. but peoples interactions with this state of consciousness cannot, and should not, be mistaken for divine interaction with anything other than that which has divinely manifested itself in you, by you. nature. your true nature. universe nature. oneness nature. but still nature.
when i say that i am an atheist, i believe that by extension this makes me a pantheist. i hold the divine nature of nature, to be just that, natural. and in so doing, find a venerable place of existence where what i thought was the incarnation of God, is actually an evolved incarnation of mySelf, human man, at this most paradoxically true moment in this part of the universe. and universe = nature. and nature = god because i am being in nature myself, along with the trillions of other living gods on this planet temple, namely everything that is in existence here.
if you see light, remember that it comes from your self awakened mind. and remember who gave it to you, because this is where the light shines from the brightest: You. with peace and awareness of oneness, You will reflect this light from the places where your known consciousness intersects with unknown places inside You. and with an understanding of you-nature in relation to universe-nature, You will help our species the most my friend.
i'm sorry if this thread has not gone the way you intended it. but i do hope you will stick around to talk further, if your intention is to truly understand with greater clarity your experience of being born again as seen through the eyes of other humans who have gone through similar journeys, or are in said process.
evolution, peace, sentience, love,
tetra
