A Religion of Assumptions

by Cold Steel 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    GaryBuss: What religion's not a religion of assumptions? Just curious.

    You’ve got a point. All belief systems are comprised of observations, assumptions and subjective conclusions, even science. But there are levels of assumptions, some made from observation and others based on supposition.

    Assumption is defined as,

    The act of:

    • taking to or upon oneself
    • taking over
    • taking for granted
    • accepted as true without proof
    • a presumption

    It also can mean the act of:

    • taking to or upon oneself
    • taking over
    • taking for granted
    • something taken for granted
    • accepted as true without proof
    • a supposition: a valid assumption or presumption

    As we can see, some aspects of the word are more insubstantial than others. So at what levels are the Jehovah’s Witnesses guilty of assumption? I always thought the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was one of the few religions that met the entire gamut of the word.

    Carmel: Christ wished by suggestion, or an allusion, to confirm the words of Peter; so...He said: "and upon this rock I will build My church," meaning, thy belief that Christ is the Son of the living God, will be the foundation of the Religion of God....

    It was more than a belief at that point, I think. Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ because the Father had revealed it through the power of the Holy Spirit. “Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee,” Jesus said, “but my Father in Heaven.” As you said, this irrefutable knowledge was to be the driving force of the church, and the “rock” was revelation from God, the life’s blood of the church, or the sure knowledge that God was leading his people. Not Peter, for he was flesh and, left unto himself, was nothing. Looking at the Jehovah’s Witnesses, we have, I think, a case of the blind leading the blind.

    Should great tribulations come upon the earth, of what worth would the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses be? As far as I know, in the past the members of this group have seldom been correct in scriptural exegeses on nearly everything. Their dates for significant happenings have always been wrong, their views on prophecy and eschatology issues like Armageddon are consistently incorrect. Their historical understandings also are frequently off (like the destruction of Jerusalem and their insistence that Jesus died on a stake, not a cross). And they miss critical eschatological events like the gathering of Judah back to the lands of their forefathers.

    So when the asteroids begin hitting the earth and the ground opens up and starts moaning and quaking, do these men in the Governing Body have a given track record to inspire confidence and to lead people to places of safety, as the apostles did in the days of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans?

    Such guidance requires two things: first, a church, because Jesus said he would build his church; and knowledge that flows from God in the form of revelation—the type that “flesh and blood” cannot provide. The Jehovah’s Witnesses say they aren’t a church and, until recently, they have denied receiving the type of revelation the apostles did.

  • freeflyingfaerie
    freeflyingfaerie

    ..and I thought I was bad at getting back to my threads lol!

    Making assumptions can bring devastatingconsequences. Reaching for understanding and real answers may take more work...but is a much better investment.

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Cold Steel,

    The progenitors of Jehovah's Witnesses were the International Bible Students under Charles Taze Russell. Jehovah's Witnesses only saw themselves as completely separated from the rest of Christendom during the era of Rutherford (2nd president of the Watchtower Society). When you look at Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, I think more broadly it reflects a sort of innovative spirit of the United States mixed with freedom of religion as a core principal of the nation. Another driver seems to be the youth of the country itself, where even more established religions such as Roman Catholic and various protestant forms had to look back to Europe to assert they were "old and well established."

    This seems to have continued with various new religious movements forming, splitting and some declining, etc.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    I wrote this on another site. The last book of the bible was written around 90 AD and was hallucinated out of a man quite possibly suffering from malaria that was slicing the human population into shreds at the time. Ever since then, “GOD” in all her forms has been silent. Therefore, I will compound the sentiment that ALL religion are faiths of assumptions, and go a step farther in saying that the bible itself, the gathering and collecting of books and stories was, in fact, a move of assumptions by the two early Nicaean councils (325 and 787).

    Jehovah's Witnesses are less of a 'cultural phenomenon' and more of just a social byproduct. Yes, religions CAN just pop into being. LDS and Scientology I think are two good examples. I think most of the cults from USA 1960s-70s would be good examples, some of which still exist. Sometimes religion is cultivated. Jehovah's Witnesses are a result of the Advent Christian Church from which Russell was a fan of. He took that a step forward and there was a Bible Student's movement, of which Jehovah's Witnesses are one of four branches, and the lone survivor a century later. On the opposite hand (outside this movement) the Advenet church developed into the Seventh-Day Adventists (still alive and kicking).

    Now, you take the religion out of religion, and look at it just as culture, it is fascinating especially when you look at the United States in the late 1800s... with Lincoln, the civil rights, and we had a war with Mexico and the Spanish-American war. There is a LOT going on in just half a century and it is easy to get people motivated spiritually, especially with a FIGHT mentality. Jehovah's Witnesses and such were a result of that. Nothing more. Anything past that has been just a "make it up as we go along" process that ALL religions go through since (at least for the Christian side) their god hasn't spoken a word since the riddled apocalypse of a madman in 90 AD.

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    It's simple. 2 types of people in this POS religion. Narcissists and narcissistic suppliers i.e. Drug addicts and codependents. Everything about the Jokehover experience is driven by the availability of narcissistic supply. Thats all there is in a nutshell.

  • cofty
    cofty

    7 years of proselytizing the Mormon cult on a cult recovery support forum. Have you no shame?

    If anybody wants information about your cult they can go to exmormon.org..

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    3 words to describe the jokehovians.

    Lost In Translation.

  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    BackseatDevil---You are so right about the conditions during the last half of the 19th century. Especially in the USA were "perfect storm" conditions for the appearance of 'savior'. 4 or 5 USA based religious organizations got their start during the time. God did bless America! Just saying.

    As Marx said it best; "Religion is the opiate of the masses".

    eyeuse2badub

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Most people are terribly insecure and subconsciously doubt their place in family and society. When someone stands up in public and speaks with conviction it is immensely persuasive. Mix that with religion and you will also attract people looking for their place in humanity. The JW, Mormon, Xian stories provide a narrative that at once excuses weaknesses , provides a heroic path to redemption (do x, stay the course, get to the magic kingdom for the reward) and gives each person a vital role to play upon which everything hangs. This whole structure requires a figurehead, someone to lead and give authority. The more inaccessible the authority the better and so god becomes a sock puppet for an earthly leadership that assumes proxy authority. The desire for leadership and direction in life is a very powerful mental force that appeals most to those who do not have much power over their life ( uneducated, poor , ill and emotionally exhausted.)

    Cold Steel how do you feel about being led by a prophet who is mentally incapable?

    Mormonism has suffered this a couple of times ( and is currently experiencing a leader experiencing severe mental degradation.)

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Cold Steel,

    Both Cofy and Qcmbr have commented on your current faith, which I assume is LDS (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've known one person who left Jehovah's Witnesses, became a Mormon, left that and is now an evangelical Christian. If you're using this forum as a safe-proxy to examine doubts you might have about Mormonism (perhaps even somewhat subconsciously) I have great sympathy for that, since I did exactly the same thing on the alt.religion.mormon Usenet group in the 1990s. If you had asked me at the time I would have not publically expressed any doubts my Witness faith, yet it facinated me how anyone could truly believe in Mormonism, when it has a so obviously flawed basis in the Book of Mormon.

    I now believe my incredulity about why people believe was itself naive. Qcmbr I think hits upon some of the key reasons. The failed factual basis of a given faith is only one aspect, much larger is the wider cultural engagement. In terms of the failed facts, a simple read of a few right-sounding appologists and one can be comforted. But in the end there is no real basis to believe Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 607 BCE (the real date in 587 BCE) and everyone outside the Witness faith is wrong. Likewise, there is no real basis to believe the history of pre-Columbus Americas involved ancient Jewish settlers of the Book of Mormon, and everyone outside the LDS faith is wrong.

    Your OP opens the thread on how assumptions can be the basis for a faith, that seems to pop into existence with little else. Both Cofty & Qcmbr comments do make me wonder how other Ex-JWs and current Witnesses who have left yet, view Mormonism. I'll open a new thread on that.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

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