The religious folk seem to be implying that the prospect of a
ARE YOU RELIGIOUS BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID OF DEATH?
by Dansk 46 Replies latest jw friends
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GentlyFeral
I have to admit that fear of death has been a major motivating factor for most of my life. So, yeah, it's also been a big part of my
spiritualityreligiosity.But once I connected to the spiritual world - you know, the intangible parts of reality - I realized that "death is the center of a long life," as the Celtic proverb has it.
I'm still afraid of death, but it's just the flesh's fear of its own extinction. Spirit lives on. I'm not so sure about consciousness, though - the boundaries blur so much after the body's death that the whole topic seems moot.
It might be more accurate to say that I'm a spiritual person because it makes earthly life juicier.
gently feral
PS:kerj2leev:
Doing something for the prize of salvation, is selfishness to the core!
True – and how much of that selfishness comes out of fear? And how much fear is rooted in the fear of death? For me, though, salvation isn't even an issue.
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kid-A
The religious folk seem to be implying that the prospect of a "reward" of eternal life as a result of worshipping their god is simply incidental to their belief system.
If that is the case, I would ask the religious, would you still make an effort to follow the teachings of your god or prophet if it was explicitely stated in your holy book that there is NOT a reward at the end of the tunnel and that indeed, this life really IS all there is. What motivation would you have under those circumstances?
Would you not simply be happy to live your life as a human being, without ascribing any elements of your fate or fortune to supernatural forces?
What would be the purpose of following a particular religious philosophy if there was no pie in the sky waiting for you at the end?
Is it really just coincidence that every single religious brand on the face of the earth offers an "escape" clause of immortality to the followers?
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choosing life
I think everyone would prefer not to have to die, unless life becomes intolerable.When I was first studying with the witnesses, I told my brother that when people died they just went to sleep, He thought that was great because he could do what ever he wanted in this life and then go to sleep. He said he would be unconscious anyway, so he couldn't care about anything. At first the thought horrified me.
Flash forward 30 years and I realize you must live life for today. If there is a God, and an afterlife, that will be great. If not, then as my brother so aptly informed me, we will never know it. But I do watch people go through the dying process and death in my job frequently, and it is not a pretty picture. So I don't think anyone would sign up for it. But the ones who impress me the most are those who accept it and go peacefully.
To answer the quesrtion (finally) I am spiritual, not religious because I don't think eternal death makes sense to me. Why should beautiful souls have to be obliterated. Isn,t the universe a lesser place at the destruction of any soul?
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GentlyFeral
kid-A,
The religious folk seem to be implying that the prospect of a "reward" of eternal life as a result of worshipping their god is simply incidental to their belief system.
It is to my belief. Over the past ten years I've come around to the idea that some kind of intangible immortality is just a natural fact of death, not a reward for good behavior.
would you still make an effort to follow the teachings of your god or prophet if it was explicitely stated in your holy book that there is NOT a reward at the end of the tunnel and that indeed, this life really IS all there is. What motivation would you have under those circumstances?
Buddhists do it all the time. Yes, I know that "folk Buddhists," as you might call them, have a whole panoply of saints and deities to pray to, and then there's that whole reincarnation thing – But Buddha himself said: "I have not stated whether the soul survives death; I have not stated whether the soul does not survive death. The question is irrelevant to the relief of suffering." He also refused to lay down dogma about the existence of God for the same reason. Nevertheless, he lived in a time when the idea of a purely material universe was not yet conceivable. Many people still cannot wrap their heads around it. For this reason, I'm not sure religion and belief in immortality are inseparable. Nowadays we have honest, atheistic priests like Father Don Cupitt as well as all those "spiritual but not religious" folk.
Would you not simply be happy to live your life as a human being, without ascribing any elements of your fate or fortune to supernatural forces?
I want to get back to the question of dissassociating "religion" from "reward".
No human being undertakes any activity without any hope of reward. In its strictest, most technical sense, this is tantamount to giving up happiness. And that just ain't natural. It isn't even right. If it were, this board would not exist.
gently feral
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kid-A
"I want to get back to the question of dissassociating "religion" from "reward". No human being undertakes any activity without any hope of reward."
Unfortunately, they cannot be dissociated. Even buddhists, while not evisioning cherubs with harps in the clouds, still cling to the belief in reincarnation, demonstrating the original point: all religious philosophies offer an escape clause of immortality, regardless of the form such immortality takes. It boils down to a simple motivation: avoid mortality. I challenge you to present evidence of a single organized religion that does not provide this psychological anesthetic.
I agree, all human behaviour is motivated, either via physiological drives or psychological drives. Still, the rewards pursued by an indiviual seeking to avoid mortality by worshipping some deity that promises some eternal paradise-like existence cannot be compared to normal, everyday motivations of human beings. I pursue my career in order to pay my bills and have reasonably comfortable life in the reality of the here and now. I also enjoy making a difference in this life, in this moment. I entertain no illusions about my mortality nor do I even remotely desire some form of eternal existence. This life is enough and I dont have enough ego or arrogance to think that my existence should somehow magically be extended for eternity. I am responsible for my own legacy and what I choose to do with the time I have remaining, fully aware that this existence is not a dress rehearsal.
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Double Edge
If that is the case, I would ask the religious, would you still make an effort to follow the teachings of your god or prophet if it was explicitely stated in your holy book that there is NOT a reward at the end of the tunnel and that indeed, this life really IS all there is. What motivation would you have under those circumstances?
Doesn't sound like a very viable "holy" book....since there's no point to life, what's the point of showing reverence to that book? I believe in a powerful Creator who has a Plan. I do not fear death. I try to follow the example of Christ, not for the reward, but at the end of the day it's a better way to live in this world. Love your neighbor, positive karma, etc..... without even thinking about it, the 'reward' of a better life here seems to manifest itself.
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Honesty
All I know is that my Jesus saved me and rescued me from a cult. As for death; saved people have no fear of it because they have proof that they will be with Jesus for eternity when they leave the physical body behind.
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Dansk
Dear All,
Thank you very much for your replies. I read every one!
This has it for me:
I believe most people are religious (why are people ok with believing Jesus will save them but are afraid to be called religious?) because it gives them a get out of death card.
I believe the majority of people are religious, i.e. believe in God, because they feel that if they worship Him they will receive some kind of reward. In the words of the song: "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". It is fear of nonexistence - annihilation - that makes one put faith in God "Oh, if I displease Him I will suffer the consequences!"
If we believe in God let us do it out of love and not fear. Some may say that having fear is a part of love (i.e. it keeps us respectful, therefore loving) but I have a problem - always have - with the amount of suffering in the world. If I, as a mere mortal, had the power to end suffering I most assuredly would - so why doesn't He? The JW take is that one day He will - but that's not good enough. There's been centuries of suffering. Mankind and, indeed, all sentient creatures have been through enough. But if there is no God life (suffering) is more understandable, at least to me! Perhaps God created us and then just left us to it. Perhaps the Buddha is right and we each have to work out our own salvation, which may take aeons of time and millions of rebirths?
Ian
