Trinity discussion - link me up please

by Inquisitor 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Auchmull, we here are familiar with JW arguments agst the Trinity doctrine. Some of these (such as John 14:28) are very solid arguments.

    But that is not the purpose of my thread. I am seeking information on whether the JW's interpretation of John 1:1 is an exegetical fallacy.

    Scriptures that prove Jesus' self-resurrection show that there is some backing for the Equality of God Son and God Father, illogical as that may be. So anti-Trinitarians such as JWs should not believe that they have won the debate.

    INQ

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Nark, I re-read your post that says:

    Imo the main thing to say about this scripture (which btw echoes the denied Jesuine saying about the temple in Mark 14:58//)

    I don't quite get who is denying the Jesuine saying and why.
    INQ

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Mark actually doesn't ascribe the saying to Jesus. He says false witnesses said Jesus said so.

    Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none. For many gave false testimony against him, and their testimony did not agree. Some stood up and gave false testimony against him, saying, "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.' " But even on this point their testimony did not agree.

    It's interesting that John connects a very similar saying to the temple cleansing (which he situates at the beginning of Jesus' ministry), while in Mark it occurs in the context of Jesus' Jewish "trial," the immediate cause of which is the temple cleansing.

    What I suggest is that this is an old tradition about Jesus (maybe from the radically anti-temple segment of Hellenistic Christianity, compare the use of cheiropoiètos, "made with hands," in Stephen's discourse, Acts 7:48, or in Hebrews 9:11,24; or even earlier if cheiropoiètos / acheiropoiètos is a Markan addition, cf. Matthew), which was eventually deemed a bit too subversive (perhaps we should now say "terroristic") and was consequently explained away, or toned down, in different ways:
    - in Mark, by suggesting Jesus actually didn't say so;- in John, by substituting the imperative "destroy" to the 1st-person future "I will destroy," and making the rebuilding figurative of Jesus' resurrection.

  • Iman123
    Iman123

    I myself have wondered about the trinity lately , as an old friend of mine is catholic and he tried to explain it to me. As for most though who try and explain the trinity they basically say in the end "....its just a mystery ...hard to explain.....so its better not to question it but just to believe the trinity." Well I have done some independant reserch on the subject myself and have found the following. 1) The Trinity , one of the central doctrines used in the catholic church , was only adopted 300 years after christs death.There is no mention and or reference to the trinity made in the entire Old Testament , and think about this while Jesus was on earth preaching and teaching , along with his followers there is no mention that they taught others of the trinity. So if the trinity is such an important doctrine then why did not Jesus teach it , he would have undoubtedly knew of it so why did he not teach it to his followers , and in turn why did they ALL not teach it as well. 2) Also since the trinity is difficult to explain and teach and to understand most would argu that since because of this it must have come from divine revelation. But that would not make sense as " God is not a god of confusion " - 1 Cor 14:33 . SO with that said would god have made a doctrine so confusing to teach and understand that even today Hebrew , Greek and latin scholars cannot really or fully explain it.So do people have to be theologians to know the only true god and jesus whom he has sent? Well if that were the case then , why did so few educated religious leaders recognize Jesus as being the messiah? Jesus followers were , Fisherman , tax collectors , farmers , housewives. Those common people were so certain that what jesus taught about god that they could even taught it to others and were even willing to die for their belief. 3) Early christians , again did not teach the trinity as the formulation " one god in three persons " was not solidly established certainly not fully assimalated into christian life and its profession of faith , prior to the end of the 4th Century. 4) SO if people really thought about it , the trinity was not taught back in jesus day , even though he is part of it yet he didnt teach it even to his close followers. So obviously this doctirne has come from an outside source into the church. This was even foretold back in jesus day by his diciples they said that there would be an apostasy , a deviation , a falling away from true worship until jesus return. 5) ALso , Jesus warned his followers by saying : " When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock . Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on thier lips to induce the disciples to follow them." WHat does this mean , well people will come into the church and become "follower" of christ and then begin teaching false doctrines not contained in the bible , but use the scriptures to fit what they are teaching to lure people away from true worship. Well , if someone is "strong" in the faith of true worship , how can they let themselves be taken away from true worship? 6) Paul wrote : " The time is sure to come when , far from being content with sound teaching , people will avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes ; and then instead of listening to truths , they will turn to myths" - 2 Tim 4:3,4 ( Catholic Jerusalem Bible ) Another trabslation reders this verse another way : " For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with healthful teaching , but , in accord with their own desires , they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears from truth , whereas they will be turned to false stories." ( New World Translation). Well from this people will get tired of listening to " Sound teaching " , such as some people feel that to live their lives according to gods word is hard and some may also feel that it constricts them in there life so then they will "follow their own desires and and accumulate teachers for themselves". Does this make sense too even though? To leave from say one church because it restricts them in the life and their desires and go to another church , for these people they would go to another church to " have their ears tickled " the like what they hear , makes them feel good. Then they will totally turn from truth to false stories , Such as the trinity. Why do people do this , well for most as from I have seen it , is that people want to have there cake and eat it too. They want to be able to go to church on sunday believe these " False stories" make them feel good have their ears tickled thinking they are doing right in gods view , and then go and do whatever they want. 7) Last point. If the trinity is a triune godhead and all three are connected and to be taken as one , then why when jesus was baptized according to Matthew 3:16 that Jesus " saw descending like a dove gods spirit upon him," So from that gods spirit descended upon jesus at his baptism , showing that jesus was not anointed by holy spirit until ONLY that time. Think about that ! How could jesus be part of a trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit.

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    "I myself have wondered about the trinity lately , as an old friend of mine is catholic and he tried to explain it to me. As for most though who try and explain the trinity they basically say in the end "....its just a mystery ...hard to explain.....so its better not to question it but just to believe the trinity." Well I have done some independant reserch on the subject myself and have found the following. 1) The Trinity , one of the central doctrines used in the catholic church , was only adopted 300 years after christs death.There is no mention and or reference to the trinity made in the entire Old Testament , and think about this while Jesus was on earth preaching and teaching , along with his followers there is no mention that they taught others of the trinity. So if the trinity is such an important doctrine then why did not Jesus teach it , he would have undoubtedly knew of it so why did he not teach it to his followers , and in turn why did they ALL not teach it as well. 2) Also since the trinity is difficult to explain and teach and to understand most would argu that since because of this it must have come from divine revelation. But that would not make sense as " God is not a god of confusion " - 1 Cor 14:33 . SO with that said would god have made a doctrine so confusing to teach and understand that even today Hebrew , Greek and latin scholars cannot really or fully explain it.So do people have to be theologians to know the only true god and jesus whom he has sent? Well if that were the case then , why did so few educated religious leaders recognize Jesus as being the messiah? Jesus followers were , Fisherman , tax collectors , farmers , housewives. Those common people were so certain that what jesus taught about god that they could even taught it to others and were even willing to die for their belief. 3) Early christians , again did not teach the trinity as the formulation " one god in three persons " was not solidly established certainly not fully assimalated into christian life and its profession of faith , prior to the end of the 4th Century. 4) SO if people really thought about it , the trinity was not taught back in jesus day , even though he is part of it yet he didnt teach it even to his close followers. So obviously this doctirne has come from an outside source into the church. This was even foretold back in jesus day by his diciples they said that there would be an apostasy , a deviation , a falling away from true worship until jesus return. 5) ALso , Jesus warned his followers by saying : " When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock . Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on thier lips to induce the disciples to follow them." WHat does this mean , well people will come into the church and become "follower" of christ and then begin teaching false doctrines not contained in the bible , but use the scriptures to fit what they are teaching to lure people away from true worship. Well , if someone is "strong" in the faith of true worship , how can they let themselves be taken away from true worship? 6) Paul wrote : " The time is sure to come when , far from being content with sound teaching , people will avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes ; and then instead of listening to truths , they will turn to myths" - 2 Tim 4:3,4 ( Catholic Jerusalem Bible ) Another trabslation reders this verse another way : " For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with healthful teaching , but , in accord with their own desires , they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears from truth , whereas they will be turned to false stories." ( New World Translation). Well from this people will get tired of listening to " Sound teaching " , such as some people feel that to live their lives according to gods word is hard and some may also feel that it constricts them in there life so then they will "follow their own desires and and accumulate teachers for themselves". Does this make sense too even though? To leave from say one church because it restricts them in the life and their desires and go to another church , for these people they would go to another church to " have their ears tickled " the like what they hear , makes them feel good. Then they will totally turn from truth to false stories , Such as the trinity. Why do people do this , well for most as from I have seen it , is that people want to have there cake and eat it too. They want to be able to go to church on sunday believe these " False stories" make them feel good have their ears tickled thinking they are doing right in gods view , and then go and do whatever they want. 7) Last point. If the trinity is a triune godhead and all three are connected and to be taken as one , then why when jesus was baptized according to Matthew 3:16 that Jesus " saw descending like a dove gods spirit upon him," So from that gods spirit descended upon jesus at his baptism , showing that jesus was not anointed by holy spirit until ONLY that time. Think about that ! How could jesus be part of a trinity where he had always been one with the holy spirit. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Welcome Iman123, You might like to put your future posts in paragraphs so it's easier to read your opinions INQ

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Again, I'd like to emphasize that telling me what is wrong or what is right about the Trinity doctrine is not what I'm really looking for.

    I'm after more specific information with regards to the translation of John 1:1.

    Link me up people, while I still hunt for that elusive thread.

    INQ

  • Auchmull
  • cabasilas
    cabasilas

    I found this discussion on John 1:1 helpful:

    http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    In regards to Iman’s ‘research’, this is little more that a parrot of inaccurate Watchtower propaganda.

    Just as the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, neither does the term disfellowship, Governing Body. Organization or worldly people. These are terms to identify a belief structure, and Trinity shows that a person is discussing the nature of God.

    its just a mystery ...hard to explain

    Humans can not understand time or infinity, neither can a physical person expect to understand the Spiritual Eternal Almighty Father. This is not proof against a difficult doctrine.

    “was only adopted 300 years after christs death”

    From the time of the Apostles the Nature of God was being discussed and early in 180AD Tertullian was using the word Trinity

    “There is no mention and or reference to the trinity made in the entire Old Testament”

    There are OT scriptures that Trinitarians take to be descriptive of the nature of God.

    “while Jesus was on earth preaching and teaching , along with his followers there is no mention that they taught others of the trinity.”

    The formulation for the Trinity does come from the words of Jesus and his followers.

    The Trinity is inaccurately defined in the Watchtower publications and the Trinity brochure is a classic in misquoting it sources. When defining the Trinity the Watchtower combines the teachings of Trinitarians and Modalists. Modal teachings are quite different to Trinitarians and yet only once does the Watchtower ever mention Modality. You can not do a study of the Nature of God by basing it on what is contained in Watchtower publications.

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Wow, it was pure accident that i stumbled back here! I'd thought that everyone's given up on this thread.

    Thank you so much cabasilas!!

    I've yet to read what's on the website you directed me to, but it looks promising.

    INQ

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