by Inquisitor 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hi all,
I remember once reading someone's post where he/she used an excellent scripture that strongly suggests that Jesus is God. I think the point was that Jesus was going to raise "the temple" which is his body, i.e. Jesus will resurrect Himself. Can anyone remember such a post?
I would also appreciate if someone could locate a discussion on John 1:1. I won't have any of the "Trinity is true because the JWs got it wrong... or their Bible is different..." crap.
INQ
I found the scripture I was talking about - John 2:18-20
INQ
I have a vague memory of this too but for the want of a working search function everything is practically lost unless you hapen to remember who started the thread (unfortunately I don't).
Imo the main thing to say about this scripture (which btw echoes the denied Jesuine saying about the temple in Mark 14:58//) is that it reflects a typical feature of Johannine Christology: Jesus also states that he lays down and takes up his life again in John 10:17f.
I've only just realized that drew sagan had recently made a thread on this . Sorry if I wasted people's time. Didn't mean to open two threads on the same topic so close to each other.
Thanks for your reply Narkissos. What are Jesuine and Johannine btw?
INQ
"Jesuine" = ascribed to Jesus. I just wanted to point out that the saying ascribed to Jesus by the author of John 2 is remarkably close to the saying ascribed to him by the "false witnesses" in the Synoptics.
"Johannine" = ascribed to John. Referring more particularly to the Fourth Gospel and the epistles of John (sometimes, but more marginally, to Revelation).
Thanks for your response, Nark.
Ok it seems to me that drew sagan's thread is merely interested in whether believing in the Trinity is a necessary requirement for a Christian. I'm not interested in such labelling.
I am curious if people have previously discussed John 1:1 at length and whether the Society is justified in translating "Word was a god" as opposed to "Word was God". Link me up if you know of such a thread.
INQ
Btw, in case anyone didn't quite get why Jesus' "raising of the temple" backs the notion that Jesus is God: JWs believe that God the Father, not Jesus, raised Jesus from the dead. But the scriptures at John 2:18-20 and Mark 14:58 recorded Jesus telling his disciples that he would be resurrecting himself from the dead after 3 days. If Jesus has the means to bring himself to life, then he must be more than the Jesus that died. Jesus must be God.
INQ
No, that can't be right. Jesus was supposed to have been able to raise Lazarus (without being God) why couldn't he raise himself without being God?
Unless because he was dead and dead is dead and the dead can't raise themselves... but then, if he was really dead, he couldn't have also been God.
Very astute, auchmull
Firstly, I believe the record of Jesus' self-resurrection would throw some serious punches at JW apologists. They have always held that it was God who resurrected Jesus, not Jesus himself. That a dead Jesus is able to resuurect himself leads to either of two possible deductions:
(1) Jesus is God, or (2) Jesus has an immortal soul. JWs will be stubbornly unwilling to compromise on either. But it is an inevitable conclusion, for the scripture is clear.
Secondly, IMO, the Trinity doctrine is above and beyond logic. e.g. how can a human Jesus be part human and part God? Where does his omniscience begin and his human limitations fit in? I have heard dozens of fancy WTS-esque illustrations involving three-leafed clovers to light spectra, and I am still unconvinced by the 3 in 1 formula. But the fact the doctrine is illogical does not mean it is without support from the scriptures.
INQ
What about how Jesus keeps saying that he was sent by one greater than himself... that isn't coequal.
What the trinitarian excuse for that?
