Who is an Apostate?

by thirdwitness 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Frank75
    Frank75

    How the Jehovah's Witnesses “Diabolize” Former Members

    The following excerpts from a WT article [The Watchtower, July 1, 1994, pp. 11-13] shows the absolute desperation the Watchtower society is facing regarding the worldwide flood of exposure of its lies, false prophecies and inhuman dictatorial treatment of its members:

    Beware of the Poisonous Food on the Table of Demons

    Comment: Interesting title as the knife cuts both ways! How does one determine the origin of what he is reading/hearing? By the fruitage born by those who follow it.

    "Food on the table of demons is poisonous. Consider, for example, the food dispensed by the evil slave class and the apostates. It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be, for the apostates have stopped feeding at Jehovah's table.”

    Comment: first sentence: “demonic food is poisonous” ? The implication that critics of the Watchtower are demonic is absurd. Just assertion presented as fact. What is false or wrong about what critics of the Witnesses say? It is slander to malign without proof. Who is imitating the “devil” here? (Diabolos = slanderer Greek) An honest inquiry will show that much of what the Watchtower says is in fact poisonous as past errors and direction has caused the break up of families, heartache, financial loss, pain and suffering even death. Also its actions towards former members are reminiscent of the bibles description of the “evil Slave”.

    "As a result, whatever they had developed of the new personality is gone."

    Comment: What real evidence of the “new personality” exists among JW’s? Most witnesses are lonely, or feel left out, because not everyone can fit into the cliques that exist. There are ongoing feuds between professed brothers; fraud, slander and gossipy back stabbing are rife, and the love, if any, that exists is purely “conditional”. Conditional love is not really love at all. (1 Cor 13:3-8) And there is the pandemic of depression, mental illness and a feeling of worthlessness. The fact is that most ex-witnesses have become more Christ-like even if they do not profess to be Christian or religious. They have humbled themselves like Abraham to leave the relative "mental" comfort and safety of their former community at great personal cost. (Heb 13:13) They have stopped judging who their brothers are based on man-made guidelines such as hours spent distributing literature or attendance records at meetings. They have stopped condemning others and stopped making false statements to their neighbors about the future. They have chosen rather the simpler Gospel of Christ which emphasizes Love, Forgiveness of sins and Salvation through faith in Christ. They have rejected a perverted Gospel that elevates certain classes to lord it over others and had the heavy weight of their pharisaic burdens lifted off of them.

    "What motivates them is, not holy spirit, but vitriolic bitterness. They are obsessed with only one aim -- beating their former fellow slaves, as Jesus foretold. -- Matthew 24:48, 49."

    Comment: We don't want to beat our former fellow slaves. The Watchtower society has a fabulous infrastructure designed for just that purpose. Gestapo-like Inquisitional Judicial Tribunals do that! In fact the scripture used here to back this statement condemns the Watchtower leaders, as Jesus said that the evil slave first says in his heart “my master is delaying” (vs 48). A prerequisite then for being an evil slave is having a certain expectation or “date” in mind for Christ’s coming. It is the Watchtower that has set unrealized time expectations for this to occur. The resultant disappointment and bitterness is evidenced by the lack of love that exists in the ranks of JW’s and especially among long time members and higher ups such as CO’s, DO’s and Bethelites.

    "Yes, apostates publish literature that resorts to distortions, half-truths, and outright falsehood."


    Comment: of course the WTS won't give any examples of this assertion. Moreover there are ABUNDANT examples of the WTS' distortions, half-truths and outright falsehoods. However the average Witness is intimidated into avoiding anything critical of their religion or leaders, so it is very hard for them to see for themselves just how error ridden the Watchtower is. Why aren’t JWs even allowed to see if it is true or not? A sincere JW has to ask himself, "if this is so true, then why can't I verify these statements for myself without being excommunicated?"

    "They even picket Witness conventions, trying to trap the unwary."

    Comment: Did the writer forget that for over a dozen years, Rutherford used to routinely order JWs by the hundreds and even thousands to swarm all over the neighborhood churches wearing sandwich cards which said "Religion is a Snare and a Racket", and to harass the peaceful church-goers with their unwanted tracts and message? I remember doing this as recent as 1969 with my parents at an assembly. This is a form of false argument called Special Pleading. You cannot use the picketing of conventions to prove Apostasy without condemning all who have employed this method.

    "Hence, it would be a dangerous thing to allow our curiosity to move us to feed on such writings or to listen to their abusive speech! While we might not think it a risk for us personally, the hazard remains”.
    Why? For one thing, some of the apostate literature presents falsehoods by means of "smooth talk" and "counterfeit words." (Romans 16:17, 18; 2 Peter 2:3)

    Abusive speech?! It's ok for the WTS to call all other religions "whores" and "spiritual fornicators", but should someone dare say they have evidence that the WTS is not what it claims to be, that is "abusive speech"? Hypocrites! (Luke 11:47,48)

    "What would you expect from the table of demons?"


    Once again, the WTS has equated critics and former members, many of which merely present their evidence from the WTS literature itself as feeding others "from the table of demons." What are they saying then about such references? Are they not saying that these references from the the WT publications are in reality the table of demons? Only an idiot could not see that this type of circular reasoning insults the common sense of any average person.

    "And while the apostates may also present certain facts, these are usually taken out of context with the goal of drawing others away from the table of Jehovah. All their writings simply criticize and tear down! Nothing is upbuilding."

    Notice that no examples are given of what is "usually" taken out of context? To the WTS, "up building" means "don't examine, and don't criticize anything we have done or said in the past, even if it is true."

    "Jesus said: "By their fruits you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16) What, now, are the fruits of the apostates and their publications? Four things mark their propaganda. (1) Cleverness. Ephesians says that they are "cunning in contriving error." (2) Prideful intelligence. (3) Lack of love. (4) Dishonesty in various forms. These are the very ingredients of the food that is on the table of demons, all of which is designed to undermine the faith of Jehovah's people."

    Again this paragraph cuts both ways! But the Witness is not permitted to look at the cunning, clever and dishonest manner that most of their cherished literature has been put together. Could someone please explain to us what "prideful intelligence" means? It seems to mean something like "if you use your brains and figure out something different than us or we said wrong then you are just too darn proud of your intellect and so shame on you".

    "As loyal servants of Jehovah, why would we even want to peek at the propaganda put out by these rejecters of Jehovah's table who now verbally beat those who are helping us take in "healthful words"? -- 2 Timothy 1:13."

    Why? Because there is a mountain of TRUTH in that so-called "propaganda", that's why. THAT is the reason the WTS is so desperately and strongly "encouraging" you not to look at that information

    You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to do it.

    Frank75

  • avengers
    avengers

    Frank!

    Andy

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    earthtone:

    DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ THIRDWITNESSES LONG POST?

    Let's be accurate - it's just a C&P; he knows it, he's been warned before.

    jayhawk1:

    Thirdwitness, what are you wanting to accomplish by posting this?

    I think we know the answe rto that.

    thirdwitness:

    You know this isn't one - you were warned before.

    You're a troll.

    A "Do not feed the troll" image

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    What I am curious about is how did this "emoticon" get into the paragraph??

    CT, Praeger Publishers, 199

    The original phrase from the Spanish website shows:

    CT, Praeger Publishers, 1998) dice que individuos que eligen dejar una fe elegida

    If you check the properties of the emoticon, it comes to us from:

    http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/media/animated/icon_smile_shy.gif

    At least give credit where credit is due on the translation of the article(To Al):

    http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2392

  • Frank75
    Frank75

    Here is a quote from the JW Trinity Brochure, that is not referenced to any writing from Justin Martyr making a contextual check very difficult, (I could not find it):

    Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."

    No matter what you believe, is lieing by forgery justified to prove your contention? If the Trinity or Deity of Christ is not true, then the evidence would not need to be contrived. Here is a series of quotes attributed to Martyr referenced to a work:

    Justin Martyr (110-165 AD):
    "... nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." - First Apology of Justin, Ch LXIII; "... but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and the Lord of hosts ..." - Dialogue with Trypho, Ch XXXVI; "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Ibid, Ch LXIII.

    Which seems true or truthfuly conveyed, no matter what you believe?

    In fact none of the following quotes from the Trinity brochure are referenced or likely from any known works yet all of the quotations from these same men immediately below are referenced and definitely show a leaning toward the Deity of Christ and/or Trinitarian Unity!

    Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."
    Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.
    Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."
    Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.
    Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

    True quotes:

    Irenaeus (120-202 AD):
    "... and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King ..." - Against Heresies, Bk 1, Ch 10; "But that He is in His own right , beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets and apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth." - Against Heresies, Bk 3, Ch 19.

    Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD):
    "For 'before the morning star it was;' and 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man ..." and "The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." - Exhortation to the Heathen, Ch 1.

    Tertullian (145-220 AD):
    "Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her - being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ." and "... while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing them in their order the three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 2; "With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses." and "...I mean the Word of God, 'through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.' Now if He too is God, according to John (who says) 'The Word was God'..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 12.

    Hippolytus (170-236 AD):
    "For he speaks to this effect: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "...'Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.' And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth." - Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Ch 14; "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings." - The Refutation of All Heresies, Bk 10, Ch 30. Origen (185-254 AD):
    "From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all ..." - Origen de Principiis, 1.3.2; "For it is one and the same thing to have a share in the Holy Spirit, which is (the Spirit) of the Father and the Son, since the nature of the Trinity is one and incorporeal." - Origen de Principiis, 4.1.32

    I would be curious to know what would result from you JW apologist out there asking the elders in your congregation or better yet writing the Society to get the actual reference pages for the quotations that they use. Tell them someone in your ministry asked you (me).

    Before leaving the dubs I wrote several letters in a humble inquisitive manner on various topics including this one and received no replies.

    Frank75

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    A humorous article...

    It correctly states that 'apostate' is a broader term than that applied by the Witnesses, then immediately exclaims that JWs apply the term in a more specific sense which does not conform to the true definition of the word, and then presumes to use that very claim as justification for their use of the term. Flawed logic at its best.

    Of course, the article is doubly wrong, as JWs also refer to former members who leave for doctrinal reasons as 'apostate' who do not publicly condemn JW beliefs.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Well, it didn't work when I tried it. But I have had it happen before when copying and pasting in forums. Must be an e-watchman thing. More copy and paste from the king of non-responsiveness. AuldSoul

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    It doesn't work because e-watchman's board software translates 8) as the shy emoticon.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    The apostate and 'maker of divisions' thirdwitness copied this:

    Sociologist Lonnie D. Kliever, a university professor from the Southern Methodist University, explains: "The word "apostasía" is a transliteration of the Greek apostasia, that originally denoted insurrection or secession. Its religious use denotes the deliberate abandonment of one's own religion".

    This quote can be found here: http://www.humanrights-germany.org/experts/eng/kliever01.pdf Professor Kliever was asked by the Church of Scientology to write a paper on the reliability of apostate testimony about new religious movements. Thirdwitness omitted the following from this paper:

    Moreover, those Protestant churches which enjoyed territorial monopoly emplyed the weapons of religiously mandated excommunication and politically sponsored persecution against rival claimants to authentic Christianity. Only with the end of the religious wars and the enactment of edicts or toleration did such active political suppression of apostasy come to an end. Fomal and informal religious sanctions were still imposed, ranging from excommunication and disinheritance to censure and shunning.

    As this brief overview demonstartes, the condemnation of apostates has served as a "legitimtion strategy" for all those religions in the past which made exclusivistic claims to be the only religion possessing the proper religious belief and practice... To be sure, the Roman Catholic Church still retains the weapon of excommunication, Protestant Fundamentalists decry the dangers of heresy, and occasionally devout families may disown chirldren who marry outside their faith or convert to another religion...They are the ritual gestures of religious dogmtists who have lost their unquestioned authotity in pluralistis and secularistic cultures. (Lonnie D. Kliever. The reliability of apostate testimony about new religious movements. 1995, Freedom Press)

    steve

  • Genesis
    Genesis

    To defend a cult like 3W is doing you have to be either very stupid, either being a leader of the cult or a lifeless troll.

    3W, honestly speaking, do you really believe that JWs are true and that GB is God's channel ?

    Stevenc, very good find ! 3W using the same garbage incomplete quotes like the Watchtower isnt surprising.

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