The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  drew sagan

  On another thread Drew Sagan wrote: This is the part where their dogma really falls apart in my opinion. For all of the 607/587 data that is debated, much of the application and interpretation of the prophecy. In fact is that the Watchtower has only ever given VERY WEAK evidence as to why the dream in Daniel 4 even has a second meaning at all. This is the part in the Gentile Times books that most critics will never take the time to refute. In fact all of the reasons why they feel the dream should have a second meaning prove one major thing in itself, that nowhere in the Bible is there an actual link between Daneil 4 and the gentile times. To this day I have not seen a good reason for why they should be connected. Challenge a JW to use ONLY THE BIBLE as a referance as to why this dream has two fullfillments, it just can't be done.
  Contrary to what he says I believe this has just been accomplished above by using ONLY THE BIBLE .
  Daneil 4 and the gentile times. To this day I have not seen a good reason for why they should be connected.
  Well, Now you have.

  
  My oh my, what a topic (in the general scope of JWs & Ex-JWs on the internet) this has become. It really seems to be at the center of all the controversy these days. And now i'm in it, knee deep ready to be pulled into to a war of words fighting and dividing over issues that we all are convinced show that we are right.
  I could have answered you by writing a very long and elaborate rebuttle of your points (which I feel is total conjecture and still does not PROVE the basic point I was trying to make), but that seems to go nowhere these days, so i'm going to say something else.
  Why can't we all just get along?
  That's right, let's put aside our differances and follow the master. You know, Jesus? That guy who taught us to hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) our enemies and 'love our neighbor' (whatever that means). From what I gathered he was the kind of guy that wasn't into all of this 'division' stuff (unless of course you didn't believe he was the son of God). But other than that he wasn't to picky, he just wasn't that kind of guy.
  Face it thirdwitness and all the rest of the JW supporters that surf these boards with all of us 'apostates' have made some new friends, us. You know, the people you have be associating with. You have come to our side, and more than likely are getting some enjoyment out of it because you just keep coming back.
  So let's put all this 'discussion' aside. It's going nowhere. All it's doing is making us all 'angry' and 'annoyed'. I vote for a better plan. Wanna go to the movies? That 'Snakes on a Plane' movie looks totally rad! Hope you'll be able to make it, i'll be waiting.
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  KW13

  i agree drew, it seems that thirdwitness is relentless with his 607 threads, which would be ok if they signified progress and proved something on his part...seems to be the same stuff constantly and instant denial that anything from us is right, even if it means ignoring it.
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  thirdwitness

  What do we have so far?

  A lot of crying about what Russell said. Doesn't matter and doesn't overcome the connection shown between the dream and the 7 times of trampling God's rulership.

  The 2300 mornings and evenings. Steve's interpretation has nothing to do with the seven times and is irrelevant.

  A lot of crying about that I am putting forth what the WT says. I used the Bible not the WT publications. I only quoted a WT publication to show that the reasoning I am doing from the Bible agrees with what the WT publications have said and that JWs have good reason for believing that the dream foretells the 7 times of Jerusalem being trampled. Just saying its wrong because the WT says it is not a very good argument.

  Someone said God wouldn't use a pagan king to illustrate his kingdom. He didn't. He used a tree to illustrate Neb's future and even more important the future of God's rule thru His Kings.

  A lot of crying about how deep and complicated it is. God would not make things so complicated. Boo Hoo. That Daniel 4 said that Neb was the head and that was it. Well if you don't want to search the scriptures of course you want find any answers or any truth. Daniel outrightly tells us that it is about God's kingdom and whoever he wants he will make rule. That is the theme of Daniel 4 as I showed in the first post I made. And the connections are clear to Ezek 17, 19, and 21.

  So Jehovah wants people to search his word to find the truth. So you have to do a little digging into God's word. Thats why he gave it to us. Matt 13: 34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.”

  Those interested in truth must dig and show that they are truely interested. Just like Jesus' disciples did.

  36 Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.”

  Those not interested in finding out what the illustrations meant didn't ask and didn't seek to know. It was too deep and complicated for them. It was hidden from them.

  And then their is the argument about against a day for a year. This is thoroughly explained in my first post. Go read and you will see.

  And the argument is made about 'Jerusalem will be trampled'. This is also explained thoroughly and the illustration about Elvis was used.

  Pretty poor arguments thus far.
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  Jim_TX

  Ummm... yall know what this fella is doin, doncha?

  He is a JW within the walls of Bethel (or whever they write this stuff that he's spewing), and is 'fishing' to see how folks rebut their '607' argument.

  He will then go off and come up with 'facts' that he can use in an upcoming 'article' that they will be oh, so proud of!

  Yall are just feeding into his 'machine'.

  Regards,

  Jim TX
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  thirdwitness

  Ummm... yall know what this fella is doin, doncha?

  He is a JW within the walls of Bethel (or whever they write this stuff that he's spewing), and is 'fishing' to see how folks rebut their '607' argument.

  He will then go off and come up with 'facts' that he can use in an upcoming 'article' that they will be oh, so proud of!

  Yall are just feeding into his 'machine'.

  Regards,

  Jim TX Well so far nobody's gave us anything of substance. I guess the original writing covered your arguments before you could bring them up.
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  james_woods

  Well, let me try to ask this again:

  What exactly did old Russell actually predict would happen in 1914, before that date? Can you quote him? Was he right?

  It makes no difference to me because he predicted the end of the world. It did not happen. The "invisible presence" was a later cover-up.

  Ergo, chronology and dates are meaningless.

  Bible, shmible. It never mentions 1914 and for good reason. Let's use our brains.
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  AuldSoul

  thirdwitness,

  There are only two occasions where "a day for a year" applied prophetically. Both were instances of punishment lasting one year for each day of wickedness. In both instances, the judgment was specifically stated as applying.

  There is no basis for using the "rule" a day for a year in Daniel chapter 4. The fact that "a day for a year" is not a prophetic "rule" at all can be quickly demonstrated in the case of the 1,260 days in Revelation. The Watchtower Society does not ever assert that the 1,260 days equate to 1,260 years.

  Do you assert that the 1,260 days of Revelation equates to 1,260 years, thirdwitness?

  If not, there is no "day for a year" rule. If so, you disagree sharply with the Watchtower Society. We will see whether you have yet learned how to answer yes or no questions. I am guessing you haven't. I believe you are a coward and a deceiver.

  AuldSoul
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  kid-A

  Newsflash 3rdwitness:

  Nobody cares! The elastic generation "new light" in 1995 rendered the significance of 1914 COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the JW mythos. So what if the watchtower still trots out this old corpse every now and then to further stupefy the rank and file with gibberish and gobbly gook about ancient history??? Its an old DEAD HORSE.

  No amount of biblical masturbation will change the fact that the world DID NOT end in 1914, as was the original "prophecy" of CT Russell, who proclaimed himself "gods mouthpiece" (more like gods butt-plug! LOL). His prediction about 1910 was ALSO complete nonsense. As was Rutherfords 1925 prediction and Franz 1975! Who cares???

  607 and 1914, who cares? Not even current JWs give a rats ass about this ancient prophecy! Do you really think an apostate needs to disprove such a minor, moot point about unprovable historical events? Your organization has killed thousands of innocents with its vile blood policies and prior medical prohibitions. It has proven itself a hypocritical liar by its association with the US. Child molesters, Bulgaria, Malawi, etc etc. The list goes on and on, and 607 is the smallest potato in the bag !!!!
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  stevenyc

  thirdwitness:
  

  The 2300 mornings and evenings. Steve's interpretation has nothing to do with the seven times and is irrelevant.

  Yep, its is irrelevant, and just as valid as your interpretation.

  A question for you, and hope you can answer it correctly.

  Do you, thirdwitness, know how the date for the end of the 'gentile times' was calculated by your founding father, Mr Russell. It is an important question because when you know how, you understand the true meaning of the prophecy you teach.

  steve
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  stillajwexelder

  irrefutable evidence ??

  That is a very broad brush stroke Thirdwitness - it can be refuted that is the whole point. You are using typical WTS phraseology