539 BCE

by Zico 142 Replies latest jw friends

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alleymom

    Marjorie

    You made several postings on the subject of Evil-Merodach or Awel-Marduk so I will respond to them all in total. I will respond also to the other nutters who have made a vain contribution after I have dealt with the issues you have raised. Posts 959-967:

    1. It is correct to say that 1965 WT in stating that the reign of Evil-Merodach was 2 years is possibly incorrect for reliable confirmation as to the length is lacking. Scholarship at that time was that his reign was of two years and this remains the case up to the present because of the cunieform evidence. However, Josephus an ancient Jewish historian claimed 18 years for this ruler so there is some conflict here. Perhaps, the writer of that article had not properly consulted the celebrated WT scholars for information pertaining to Josephus. Whatever the case, scholar, WT writers, celebrated WT scholars, Governing Body and the FDS are not infallible and make mistakes unlike aposates and higher critics who are infallible and are 'of the gods'!

    2. Celebrated WT scholars are quite happy to accept that scholarship endorses by means of cunieform tablets and other documents that EM' s reign was of two years but it also must be recognized that Berossus gives differing figures for the Neo-Babylonian period and so does Josephus. Josephus does provide primary evidence for Josephus and however you view Josephus does give conflicting data for the NB period.

    3. To demonstrate how shonky Neo-Babylonian chronology I draw your attention to the following facts:

    Berossus assigns for Nabopolassar a reign of 29 years rather than the traditional reign of 21 years, Josephus gives him a reign of 21 years.

    Berossus assigns for EVIL-Merodach a reign of 18 years which differs from the traditional chronology and Josephus which give a reign of 2 years.

    Whiston in his discussion of the chronology of Josephus that Josephus determined that 40 years for Neriglissar and that the reign of Evil-Merodach ought to have 22 years rather than 2 in the Canon and those instead of the 18 in our copies of Josephus.

    We see then that from Josephus there is much confusion as to the reigns of certain rulers of the Neo-Babylonian period and that is why celebrated WT scholars largely reject the evidence as currently understood by modern scholars.

    Regardless of these facts what is more important is the testimony of the Bible and the Bible refers to a definite historic period of seventy years which is unaccounted for in the Babylonian history and cunieform tablets. Such a period proves a twenty year gap that cannot be reconciled with current king-lists so the celebrated base biblical chronology on this solid historical fact despite the so-called overwhelming evidence of the pagans who did bother to give any account of the Jewish exile in Babylonia. This latter fact demands an explanation.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    You made several postings on the subject of Evil-Merodach or Awel-Marduk so I will respond to them all in total. I will respond also to the other nutters who have made a vain contribution after I have dealt with the issues you have raised. Posts 959-967:

    'scholar's' introduction betrays his complete lack of ability to analyse points on their merits. Instead he prefers to attack the person presenting them.

    1. It is correct to say that 1965 WT in stating that the reign of Evil-Merodach was 2 years is possibly incorrect for reliable confirmation as to the length is lacking. Scholarship at that time was that his reign was of two years and this remains the case up to the present because of the cunieform evidence. However, Josephus an ancient Jewish historian claimed 18 years for this ruler so there is some conflict here. Perhaps, the writer of that article had not properly consulted the celebrated WT scholars for information pertaining to Josephus. Whatever the case, scholar, WT writers, celebrated WT scholars, Governing Body and the FDS are not infallible and make mistakes unlike aposates and higher critics who are infallible and are 'of the gods'!

    Of course there is extant evidence from the period that unequivocally indicates that Evil-Merodach's reign did indeed last only 2 years, so an error by Josephus is irrelevant. Significantly, 'scholar' also ignores the possiblity that part of the 18 years may have been a period of co-regency. Notably, 'scholar' would not dare apply the same hard and fast rigidity to the bible which says that Jehoram (son of Ahab) started to reign after Jehoram (son of Jehoshaphat) (2 Kings 1:17, see also 2 Kings 3:1), AND that Jehoram (son of Jehoshaphat) started to reign after Jehoram (son of Ahab) (2 Kings 8:16). (I have accounted for this discrepancy in my tabulation of the divided monarchy.)

    2. Celebrated WT scholars are quite happy to accept that scholarship endorses by means of cunieform tablets and other documents that EM' s reign was of two years but it also must be recognized that Berossus gives differing figures for the Neo-Babylonian period and so does Josephus. Josephus does provide primary evidence for Josephus and however you view Josephus does give conflicting data for the NB period.

    The "primary" evidence is the extant material directly from the period itself. All other evidence must obviously be considered with respect to that.

    We see then that from Josephus there is much confusion as to the reigns of certain rulers of the Neo-Babylonian period and that is why celebrated WT scholars largely reject the evidence as currently understood by modern scholars.

    There isn't really "much confusion" at all. There has in the past been some confusion, but that is cleared up by the extent contemporary evidence.

    Regardless of these facts what is more important is the testimony of the Bible and the Bible refers to a definite historic period of seventy years which is unaccounted for in the Babylonian history and cunieform tablets. Such a period proves a twenty year gap that cannot be reconciled with current king-lists so the celebrated base biblical chronology on this solid historical fact despite the so-called overwhelming evidence of the pagans who did bother to give any account of the Jewish exile in Babylonia. This latter fact demands an explanation.

    It could just as easily be said that the bible refers to a "definite historic period of seventy years" for Tyre too. But the bible does make it perfectly clear that the 70 years as defined by Jeremiah were of nations serving Babylon, not of Jewish exile, which began about 10 years prior to the overthrow of Jerusalem. I have already reconciled the entire period, using data predominatly from the bible directly. The Society's model throws out not only the known chronology of the Neo-Babylonian period, but also puts the entire history of the Jewish monarch out of sync with contemporary history.

  • Hoping4Change
    Hoping4Change

    More questions from a simple person: Scholar: Please can you tell me: 1) Who and where are the celebrated WT scholars? You see, the reason I ask is that it seems a reasonable thing that for someone sincerely interested in such matters, one should be able to ascertain (to some degree) the 'qualifications' of those presenting/representing certain theories and ideas. Much in the same way that people check out (and are assured of) the credentials of their doctors and surgeons, think of this whole relgious arena as people seeking out doctors and surgeons for their spirituality. Surely people should investigate and find out the qualifications of those offering spiritual services and likewise, those offering themselves as being qualified to make such offerings have some kind of obligation and duty to show that they are indeed qualified to assist the individual seeking 'spiritual assistance'. Is there any part of this that doesnt make sense, or have I misunderstood something? Is there anyone else besides Furuli that you can give as an example of a WT scholar? And can you also describe in what way one may properly consider Furuli a "celebrated" scholar? 2) Again (as I have asked in other threads) can you please tell me what "biblical chronology" is? From everything I have read to date, it would appear as though the WT chronology relies just as much upon "secular chronology" as anyone else; i.e, WT chronology IS every bit as much SECULAR chronology as any other line of chronological reasoning. There is not a single date in the bible, hence all chronology absolutely must be secular based, correct? Truly trying to understand...

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan
    The public teaching of the truth of 607 BCE and its accompanied implications can in no way be a violation of Jesus' wrning and prophecy at Luke 21:8, in fact it is in harmony with those words for it alerts the public to the dangers of being misled by false chronologies such as Jonsson's theories which 'cloud' over the significance of the End Times beginning in 1914.


    So yet again the best answer a JW can give me in reply to Luke 21:8 is sipmly that it dosn't apply to the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I also guess that for all of the wrong dates that they promoted over the years God just forgave them because they where his 'chosen' people.
    I would like to know if in the public preaching work you would enjoy using such a defense. Your criticism of others is quite selective. You state that the account is a warning for us not to follow the tricks of Johnsson? I tend to see a broader explanation, one that contains ANY last day newspaper preacher that tries to get followers through fear and sensationalized material, claiming that 'Christ is Near'
    You and I both know that such reasoning is poor. If they where Gods chosen people he wouldn't have let them proclaim so many false prophecies, instead he would have protected them from such mistakes because of the damaging effect they could have on their work.

    On another note, I actually wonder about you scolar. Why are you really here? Every one of your posts tends to deal with 607, 539, and the gentile times. I guess the biggest mystery is this, if you are such a hardcore JW beliver then why do you continue to break their rules by even being on this forum? Don't you realize that the freeness of speech and debate that you enjoy on this forum (over a thousand posts worth) is denied to you by your own religion.
    There is more apostate in you than you think.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "You ask sincerely why is it the case that scholar only concerns himself with matters pertaining only to chronology. It is surely the case that scholar could engage with many other topics such as those you have mentioned and from time to time the foresaid scholar will intrude and make comments on such issues."

    Scholar, I wonder if you took the advice of your celebrated watchtower sh*t-lords at the recent District Convention and adopted the resolution NOT to frequent internet "chat rooms" operated by apostates? Were you crossing your fingers as you mouthed the idiotic "pledge of allegiance" from Brooklyn? Since you are now patently in violation of the very rules of your beloved cult simply by your annoying (and unwanted) participation in this board, how do you reconcile your disobeyance of your brooklyn masters and celebrated watchtower dip-sh*ts?

  • toreador
    toreador
    Were you crossing your fingers as you mouthed the idiotic "pledge of allegiance" from Brooklyn?

    That hit the nail on the head. LOL good one!

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    scholar: 2. Celebrated WT scholars are quite happy to accept that scholarship endorses by means of cunieform tablets and other documents that EM' s reign was of two years but it also must be recognized that Berossus gives differing figures for the Neo-Babylonian period and so does Josephus. Josephus does provide primary evidence for Josephus and however you view Josephus does give conflicting data for the NB period.

    I have no qualms whatsoever about dismissing every thought you post on the issue of period chronology after reading this inane and doctrine-serving attempt to make opaque an issue that is actually crystal clear. Let's engage in a little WT scholarly exercise, shall we? Just to stretch your brain a bit.

    First, let's briefly examine order of precedence in historical research:

    "Primary": A document which is primary is contemporary to the events described. An example would be the original Declaration of Independence, the original Declaration Setting Forth the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, or a contemporary record of Parick Henry's famous "Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" speech.

    "Secondary": A document which derives from a primary document. An example would be a book on the benefits and necessity of freedom from tyranny that quotes liberally from the two sources used as examples of primary documents.

    "Tertiary": A document which derives from a secondary document. An example would be a book that cites as an authority the primary documents but uses as its source the secondary example given.

    "Quaternary": A document which derives from a tertiary document.

    et ceteras

    The balance of evidence is always weighted in favor of the works nearest to primary.

    Berossus:

    Wrote Babyloniaca circa 290-278 BCE. Was an agenda driven Hellenistic Babylonian writer. Was used as an authority by such notables as Josephus, Pliny the Elder, Seneca the Younger, and Eusebius, of whom it is very likely NONE had access to Berossus writings, but relied on the derivative works of Polyhistor or Poseidonius. In the case of Eusebius, his references do not even rate tertiary connection to Berossus' texts. None of Berossus' texts related to Babylonian history have survived. Zero. Only possible secondary or definite tertiary examples of Berossus are extant. Berossus' work, itself, is at best a secondary document and at worst is derived from several tertiary or quaternary sources. Anything derived from Berossus would be at best tertiary relative to primary documents Berossus presumably worked from, and at worst quaternary or even farther removed from those primary documents if Berossus' history was also based on derived works.

    Josephus:

    Unquestionably agenda driven historian who provides the only possible extant secondary link to Berossus' works. In every other case there is no possibility of nearer than tertiary reference to Berossus' texts. Josephus is obviously further removed in the stream of time from the events about which he writes and he infers that Berossus was direct source (in which case, his writings would be secondary), despite the greater likelihood that his works derive from Alexander Polyhistor (in which case, another tertiary example). Additionally, it must be remembered that at very best Josephus is a tertiary account relative to any primary documents from which Berossus' work was derived.

    Adad-Guppi (Adda-Guppi) Stele (Nabon. H1 B):

    A contemporary document, i.e. a primary document. A period piece, if you will. Scratch that, a period piece even if you won't. It chronicles the life of the Queen Mother, the mother of Nabonidus, from the reign of Assurbanipal II all the way down to her death during Nabonidus' reign. It puts her age at either 102 or 104 years old.

    Now you might call that "ambiguous" but the same "ambiguity" of two years would remain under WTS chronology yet the woman would have to have been either 122 or 124 years old when she died. At 102 she was already remarkably long lived for the period in this region, but nothing we know of the people of this region can possibly account for her telomeres being long enough for an additional two cellular reproduction cycles.

    The Kingdom Come Appendix notation on this stele states that the kings mentioned in the stele correspond to Ptolemy's canon (courtesy of Berossus) is incidental to the overwhelming evidence it represents that the ENTIRE period of time from Assurbanipal II to sometime during Nabonidus' reign fit within one very long-lived person's life span. That this person was famous enough to have her life chronicled is merely a happy accident of history for historians and a death blow to celebrated WT scholars.

    Hillah Stele:

    A contemporary document, i.e. a primary document. It was written in 555 BC. It contains an unusually specific astronomical observation which narrows down the timing to within five days, between May 31 and June 4, 555 BC. The document records an order to restore a temple in Harran destroyed by Umman-manda 54 years earlier. This "sack of Harran" by Umman-manda is known from BM 21901 (another primary document). The Hillah Stele specifies that this sack occurred during the 16th year of Nabopolassar. 555 BC + 54 years = 609 BC. The 16th year of Nabopolassar = 609 BC.

    The celebrated WT scholars don't mention the existence of this primary document at all, anywhere. This primary document almost single-handedly eliminates any possibility of 607 BC as the date for the destruction of Solomon's Temple. If not for that fact, I might wonder why the celebrated WT scholars never mention it at all, despite the fact that it is the only reason for fixing 555 BC as Nabonidus' first regnal year. In other words, they know of its existence and are fully aware of its significance but do not mention it simply because it is destructive to their doctrine.

    Egibi banking family documents:

    A collection of primary documents of the sort that any historian of any period only dreams of actually finding. A vault of banking documents was discovered that contains simple transaction records covering the entire neo-Babylonian period. The transactions are dated to the regnal years of the kings. Unless we assume that someone so badly wanted to erase all memory of a neo-Babylonian king(s) that they dug up a bank vault and fabricated transaction tablets to eliminate the existence of the king(s), then primary examples exist for all neo-Babylonian kings spanning the entire period in question.

    Herd Record from the Temple at Eanna (Uruk):

    A primary document that is notable for its complete isolation from "official history" and would therefore be free of any possibility of politically motivated agenda. It notes the years of Evil-Merodach's reign AT THE TIME of his reign, and (like the Egibi banking family documents and probably the Hillah Stele) would not have been available to Berossus.

    But, scholar, you call neo-Babylonian chronology into question based on Berossus (of whose writings none are extant) and on secondary and tertiary references to Berossus when PRIMARY documents are readily available that answer EVERY SINGLE ONE of your "concerns". In many cases the answer to your concerns is quite bluntly, "Where primary sources disagree with Berossus, Berossus is wrong. Any works derived from Berossus that do not agree with primary sources are also wrong."

    Also, your celebrated WT scholars call into question the veracity and reliability of Berossus and references derived from Berossus. Since this is the case, WHY would anyone credit what Berossus has to say about ANYTHING unless it just happened to agreed with primary documents? I find it interesting that you wrote "Berossus assigns..." I find this incredibly interesting. Unless you are a singularly remarkable human, you have never encountered Berossus' works. As far as I know, there are no extant primary examples of Berossus' work. You have only encountered derivations from his works. Care to address this anomalous stance you have taken?

    In short, where neo-Babylonian chronology does not agree with Berossus it is because Berossus is wrong. Where Josephus is wrong, it is usually due an error published by Berossus or Polyhistor, but sometimes due to his own error. It makes sense that those who lived centuries after the events chronicled would be more likely to make mistakes than would people who lived during the recording of the events themselves.

    For this reason, primary documents take precedence over secondary, tertiary, and quaternary documents. Where the others agree with primary documents, these derive credibility from the primary documents, they cannot lend credibility to primary docuemts or take credibility away from primary documents. Where these differ, the primary documents are correct and the others are in error.

    I really hope you consider this carefully as you frame whatever response you intend to make (as promised) to my previous post.

    AuldSoul

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    pseudo-scholar....That wasn't a reply to Marjorie at all. Her post pointed out tablets from the Neo-Babylonian period itself, even from the reign of Evil-Merodach himself, that verify the length of the Evil-Merodach's reign. Your post only addressed potential disagreement about the length between two writers who lived centuries later. As I pointed out in my last post, contemporaneous writers almost always trump ones much later. You would be implying that someone who lived in AD 2226 or 2400 would know better about a basic fact pertaining to 2006 than someone writing in 2006. Let's say that by 2400 there is a disagreement about whether Saddam Hussein's presidency lasted 24 years, or whether it lasted 34 years. The latter figure would place the Iraq war in 2013, which you and which I know is completely wrong. People writing in AD 2400 don't know better because they are not living in the period itself. So let's suppose a whole library of accounting records are dug up in Baghdad in the future, and which show precisely what people living in our time knew...

    10th year of Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, total 890 transactions

    11th year of Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, total 941 transactions

    1st year of Saddam Hussein, total 976 transactions

    .... (skipped)

    22th year of Saddam Hussein, total 1,816 transactions

    23th year of Saddam Hussein, total 1,862 transactions

    24th year of Saddam Hussein, total 1,921 transactions

    Year of war with United States and Britain, total 1,140 transactions

    1st Year of Ghazi Yawer (and Iyad Allawi as PM), total 1,498 transactions

    1st Year of Jalal Talabani, total 1,564 transactions

    2nd Year of Jalal Talabani, total 1,621 transactions

    This accounting from 1977-2006, written in the period itself, clearly indicates that the figure that gives Saddam Hussein a presidency of 24 years is the correct one. Otherwise there would be about ten years missing if 34 was the correct number. Could someone who lived in the period itself giving a careful accounting simply forget ten years of his or her life? A judicious historian would not throw her arms up and say, "Well, we just don't know who to believe, after all Mr. Historian from AD 2400 thinks the presidency lasted 34 years, so these records from the time itself may be in error." Especially if this was not the only record coming from the time but in fact there are many other records that say the same thing. The historian would notice that the "34" figure appears only much later in the data and is contradicted by the testimony of the earlier contemporaneous texts. The historian would conclude that this figure is in error.

    With respect to the matter at hand, you've distorted the basic facts as well:

    Berossus assigns for Nabopolassar a reign of 29 years rather than the traditional reign of 21 years, Josephus gives him a reign of 21 years.

    Berossus assigns for EVIL-Merodach a reign of 18 years which differs from the traditional chronology and Josephus which give a reign of 2 years.

    The relevant passage from the third book of Berossus' Babyloniaka is preserved in none other than Josephus' own history. It is quoted twice in Antiquities 10.11.1 and Against Apion, 1.19-20, and so Josephus was explicitly dependent on Berossus. The passage from Berossus that dealt with Nabopolassar was quoted in Antiquities 10.11.1 which states that Nebuchadnezzar's father "fell ill, and ended his life in the city of Babylon, after he had reigned twenty-one years (eté basileusanta eikosi kai hen)". This is in a quote from Berossus, so it cannot be said that Josephus rather than Berossus gave length as 29 years. The same passage is again quoted in Against Apion 1.19: "His father Nabolassar fell into a distemper at this time, and died in the city of Babylon, after he was king for twenty-one years (eté bebasileukoti KA)". This latter passage indicated the year with numerical letters, kappa (value = 20) and alpha (value = 1), and this is the reading that is given in the modern critical text (cf. TLG, Loeb) and is supported by the oldest witnesses of the Apion text (such as eté bebasileukoti KA in Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica, 9.40.2), as well as the eikosi kai hen in Antiquities which spells out the figure. However some later manuscripts, such as the medieval Codex Laurentianus, give the numeric letters as kappa and theta, yielding a figure of "twenty-nine years". This is where the "29 years" comes from. It is well known that numbers stated through numeric letters were much more prone to copyist error than those spelled out in full, and so the later variant arose quite easily when a copyist mistook an alpha for a theta and substituted the wrong letter. It is absolutely clear which of the two variants is correct since "twenty-one" is the value given in the oldest manuscripts and it corresponds to the spelled-out version of the figure in the quotation of the same text in Antiquities. Thus both Berossus and Josephus quoting him gave Nabopolassar a regin of 21 years.

    Berossus moreover does NOT assign Evil-Merodach a reign of 18 years. The quotation from Babyloniaka is given as follows: "Nabouchodonosor, after he had begun to build the aforementioned wall, fell sick and departed this life, when he had reigned forty-three years, whereupon his son Evil-Maradouch obtained the kingdom. He governed the public affairs after an illegal and impure manner, and had a plot laid against him by Neriglissar, his sister's husband, and was slain by him when he had reigned but two years (baileusas eté B)". The letter given here is beta, the second letter of the alphabet, and the value of beta = 2. Eusebius, quoting the same passage, states exactly the same thing (Praeparatio Evangelica, 9.40.4-5). Rather, it was Josephus who erroneously gave the figure "eighteen years" (eté októkaideka) in Antiquities 10.11.2. Unlike the text dealing with Nabopolassar, this was not a direct quotation from Berossus but Josephus' own paraphrase and original writing (hence the mention of Jeconiah and the use of Daniel 5 in the passage). The direct quotation from Berossus ended in section 226 where Josephus switched to a reference to Megasthenes before returning to the succession narrative. Since Josephus was already rewriting Berossus to the extent that he was converting his numeric notation into spelled-out words, he likely misread a letter like the later copyist of Josephus subsequently did. The important point is that Josephus was paraphrasing Berossus, and thus did not take the number from Berossus (since he gave the correct number "two years," as Josephus himself shows when he quoted Berossus word-for-word in Against Apion) or from some other source (since Berossus was the source he explicitly cited) but produced it himself as a mistake just as he also erroneously states that the kingdom passed from Labosordachos after a reign of 9 months to Baltasar "who was called Naboandelos by the Babylonians" (Antiquities 10.11.2; section 231). This is clearly based on the account of Berossus that Josephus quotes in Against Apion 1.20, but he bungles the spelling of the name (Naboandelos for Berossus' Nabonnedos) and mistakes Nabonidus for Belshazzar. Getting the length of Evil-Merodach's reign wrong would have been another similar error, but it is of small consequence since Josephus otherwise has preserved his source (which has also been reproduced by Eusebius).

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    scholar,

    I would like your help with a very simple thought exercise.

    An acquaintance of mine, Sam, is a dolt. He lives near me. We found a bug on the way home from school the other day. Neither of us had seen this bug before. We caught it in a glass jar we found on the side of the road. It had six legs, what appeared to be an exoskeleton, and when viewed through the jar from the underside it appeared to be a beetle or aphid of some kind. When we got to my house Sam asked if he could use my phone. I overheard Sam telling his mother that we caught a 14-foot-long crocodile and we were keeping it in a big jar at my house. Sam's mother demanded to speak to me immediately.

    To put it nicely, Sam was genetically predisposed to doltishness. I first tried explaining to Sam's mother the difficulty of finding a jar suitable for the storage of 14-foot-long crocodile on a walk home from school. While certainly possible, it isn't very likely at all that Sam and I had such a jar handy on our little exploratory excursion. Then I tried to relate the actual nature of the little critter crawling around the bottom of the jar while she cited poorly sourced statistics about the dangers of crocodiles and their propensity to eat small children of Sam's size and mental acumen.

    I described several features of the bug in detail, it was obviously an insect of some sort and not reptilian at all. But she was not to be put off, I had captured a 14 foot-long crocodile and imperiled her son. Finally, in a very demanding way she asked me to name what it was I had caught since I seemed insistent that I didn't catch a 14-foot-long crocodile. Due to the circumstances (never having seen this insect before) I had to leave some room for error in the interests of intellectual integrity. "I'm not too sure, but it looks like some sort of beetle or aphid."

    At this point, in a huff, she asked to speak with Sam. I repeatedly heard Sam confirm "Yes! A 14-foot-long crocodile! 14-foot-long, with big teeth and a scaly back! No, it's a croc-o-dile!"

    When she finally asked to speak with me again, she asked, "Sam is sure of the size, he is sure it isn't a bug, and he is sure it is a crocodile. Your answers aren't nearly so certain. How do you expect me to believe you when you can't even tell me, for certain, what it is you caught?"

    Conclusion: Proving error does not require first proving truth, it merely requires falsifying an assertion.

    I hope you agree with my conclusion, given the parameters of the thought exercise. The celebrated WT scholars are Sam. We, on this forum, are collectively Sam's acquaintance, trying to explain to you that 607 BC cannot possibly be right for the year of the destruction of Solomon's Temple, for an abundance of reasons, even though we do not know precisely to the day when the destruction did occur.

    We know many years in which Solomon's Temple did not get destroyed. For instance, it didn't get destroyed in 4010 BC and it didn't get destroyed in 1783 AD. For many reasons, I am sure neither 4010 BC nor 1783 AD nor 607 BC is the correct date for the destruction of Solomon's Temple. But disproving any one of these years does not require knowing for certain the year in which Solomon's Temple was destroyed.

    Given the body of primary evidence readily at hand, you might as well suggest that Solomon's Temple was actually a small furry woodland creature as suggest that it was destroyed in 607 BC. Does that make the Bible false on any point? Well, now comes the real question...if the Bible is interpretted differently than the WTS interpretation, can it be made to correspond to neo-Babylonian history?

    Yes. It can. "Fulfilled its sabbaths" could easily be interpretted as a reference to 50 years (i.e. a "Jubilee" of years, of special Sabbath significance) exiled. The 70 year mark would not have had Sabbath significance, because after 50 the Sabbath clock resets. 71 years would have had Sabbath significance, but only in the sense that it would be another seventh year. Within a 70 year time span, only 49 and 50 years would have special Sabbath significance.

    Chronicles doesn't say that the land fulfilled seventy years by lying desolate, it says that the (unspecified) period of its lying desolate fulfilled the seventy years. In your interpretation you switch these two around as though they are interchangable, but what if they are not? Indeed, according to secular neo-Babylonian chronology, the book of Daniel, and the book of Jeremiah, the period of its lying desolate (50 years) fulfilled the seventy years Jeremiah prophesied for Babylonian ascendancy.

    I hope you can allow for the intrusion of thoughts that don't strictly agree with the WTS. However, if you can't allow for a different interpretation of the Bible, then please account for the voluminous facts presented to you that directly contradict the WTS interpretation of the Bible. In other words, please show us that your boy Sam really caught a 14-foot-long crocodile and put it in a jar.

    Hopefully,
    AuldSoul

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Very good points, AuldSoul!

    Unfortunately, as you already know, they'll be lost on our laughing boy because he subscribes to the never-stated-clearly-in-Watchtower-Land doctrine that the Society's leaders' proclamations are to be viewed as coming directly from Jehovah, until such time as these leaders declare that a particular proclamation is "old light". Thus, even though he admits that these charlatans can make doctrinal mistakes, scholar pretendus will pretend that all of their current pronouncements on Bible chronology are directly inspired and therefore unchallengeable until the next time they decide to change the figures, as they did from about 1925 through 1944.

    We can see this with the challenges various posters have given scholar pretendus with regard to the length of Evil-Merodach's reign. We know that, back in 1966, he would have been adamant that the Society's figure of 2 years was unquestionably correct, since it was given in Fred Franz's book Babylon the Great Has Fallen. But when later WTS publications fuzzily suggested that perhaps this figure was incorrect, scholar pretendus would have changed his tune in lock step.

    Similarly, we know perfectly well that this moral moron would immediately change his opinion on any and all aspects of Bible chronology if the Society's leaders published updated information. This indicates again what all intelligent ex-JWs know -- Jehovah's Witnesses as a people and as a "theocratic" (LOL!) organization are grossly intellectually dishonest. They don't follow the Bible at all -- they follow what Watchtower leaders claim about the Bible.

    AlanF

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