the all knowing god?

by the dreamer dreaming 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • the dreamer dreaming
    the dreamer dreaming

    dont know if this has been discussed or not...but...

    it always bothered me when people claimed that God is all knowing... what exactly does that really mean or can mean?

    after all, according to all, there was some point when only god existed and so its pretty easy to be all knowing when there is nothing to know.

    but why should we assume that a being who had no one teach him and nothing to learn from could be anything but insane?

    we should trust god, some have told me, because he made everything and therefore knows everything about what he made... sorry, but that does not follow at all.

    my subconscious, apparently, seems to be able to manifest many dreams of very complex things which leaves me puzzled as to their workings not understanding them at all....

    the bible shows God to be less than all knowing on many occasions, especially in Genesis 18:20-21 where he is going to investigate a REPORT that has come to him.... from where or who we are not told.... but it makes it clear he is desiring to find out if the report is accurate or not...

    anger, suprize and pain are all indications of less than all knowingness when they are picked apart...and the bible god manifests them all.

    as to this concept that somebeing or any being can stand outside of all of reality and see it like a painting, there are some very great flaws that few seem to notice or care about... it presumes that all times already exist... something for which zero evidence exists and the bible itself does not make such a claim anywhere.

    it also makes god, who presumably is the sole creator, completely responsible and unable to blame anyone for anything as the concept of freewill, which has its own problems, could not be possible if all times have eternally existed or exist as of the point god created them.

    this really silly argument that just because god knows what will happen, does not make him responsible because he did not do it? how can it not if everything exists at once for god and he made it all?

    by definition the future is what has not yet happened and therefore there is nothing to know, only to guess at... and the notion that god does actually KNOW the future is irrational. the bible god mostly is found saying this is what will come to pass because I will MAKE IT HAPPEN not because he foresees it.

    the so called proof of God's omnscience, the prophecies are none too impressive... the new testament makes many bold claims that Jesus did such and such to fulfill such and such in the old, yet a careful read of the old reveals that this is fraud...they are take verses completely out of context that have nothing to do with the Jesus and if about a coming messiah, the expectation was failed as they refer to someone in their time period not hundreds of years later. anyone can read an event into the bible backwards, but so far hardly anyone and no one I know, has been able to use the bible to predict something in advance and then watch it occur on schedule.... even the new test. makes mention that the supposed fulfillments were completely alien to those alive at the time.

  • AlmostAtheist
    anger, suprize and pain are all indications of less than all knowingness when they are picked apart

    Yep, which is exactly why if a person likes their religion, they shouldn't try to pick it apart. They don't stand up well under scrutiny, as you've come to know!

    Good thoughts you've posted here.


  • DannyBloem

    Have you tought about this?

    1. prophecies say nothing even if they come true about God seering into the future. If you are almighty it is very easy to arrange exactly as you told before.

    2. How could God not know the future (that is for us the future)>
    If God created everything, he created time and the universe. This means that he himself is not influenced by time. This in turn means that there is no present and future for him. He is omnipresence not only in space but also in the 4th dimension: time.

    3. consider there is no God, then all problems seem to dissapear.....

    D B

  • enlightenedcynic

    The gnostics may have it all figured out. Perhaps this bible god Jehovah is just a demiurge or lesser god who is imperfect himself and created this imperfect universe? Makes sense to me because to reason the other way makes absolutely no all knowing, loving and kind god allows suffering, sickness and death because he needs to prove a point. Pure bull****!!!


  • Perry
    an all knowing, loving and kind god allows suffering, sickness and death because he needs to prove a point. Pure bull****!!!

    So, you would personally have created a world where evil was impossible?

  • PrimateDave

    I don't know if you ever have, but it is helpful to read a scholarly work of the Documentary Hypothesis of who wrote the Bible. Yahweh Elohim starts out as a god (apparently one of many gods) with very human traits.
    As their religion evolved, the priestly factions within the nation of Israel added to, compiled, and edited what later became the Tanakh according to the prevailing political and economic climate of their times.
    The religion went through an ethical revolution in the days of King Josiah and later entered the legalistic phase later on after the exile. The clues are all there.
    Even the Catholic Church supports such scholarship nowadays. Only Fundamentalist types like JW's reject the D.H. out of hand because it messes with their pet doctrines.
    As such, it helps to see that the god of the Bible seems to be a different person in different parts because it is an evolving god, man made.
    Of course, the so-called omniscient god was a much later developement. Kinda like Santa Claus.

  • Warlock

    As Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught God CHOOSES to know some things, and also chooses to NOT know some things.

    Here's what I was told, as an example: God chooses not to know who will made it thru Armaggedon because it wouldn't be fair. Revelation Chapter 22 says "let anyone that wishes, take life's water free". If God knew who was going to survive, then, that particular verse(17) would be a lie.

    I can't remember some others because it's been a while.


  • trevor

    the dreamer dreaming

    Throw your Bible away and carry on dreaming. It's as close to heaven as you'll ever be

  • the dreamer dreaming
    the dreamer dreaming
    As Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught God CHOOSES to know some things, and also chooses to NOT know some things.

    this actually seems worse as the JW god seems to be willfully ignorant and it begs the question...if the future is already there to be known and he just chose not to do so, who made it? for it to be there already means that either he made it unconsciously--- wow what a sickness we have in Jesus, sing it with me.

    or that the true nature of reality exists independently of God, his is no creator at all, and he is just a fraud demanding worship under false premises.

  • kid-A

    or that the true nature of reality exists independently of God, his is no creator at all, and he is just a fraud demanding worship under false premises.

    Or the most parsimonious explanation: "god" is a projection of the human mind, constructed to explain phenomena over which we have no control and can not accept.

    Think of it this way, would the so-called "supreme being" and creator of the universe really be so pitifully petty and needy as to "require the worship" of lowly mortals? Like some lonely little puppy dog begging for our attention and love? At least the love of a dog is truly "unconditional"....

    How sad that so many are willing to submit themselves to such humiliation and degradation in the name of "kissing Hank's ass"....

    This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

    John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

    Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

    Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

    John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

    Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

    John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

    Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

    Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

    Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

    John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

    Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

    Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

    Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

    John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

    Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

    Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

    Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

    John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

    Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

    John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

    Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

    Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

    Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

    John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

    Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

    John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

    Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

    Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

    Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

    John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

    Me: "Who's Karl?"

    Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

    Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

    John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

    From the Desk of Karl
    1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
    2. Use alcohol in moderation.
    3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
    4. Eat right.
    5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
    6. The moon is made of green cheese.
    7. Everything Hank says is right.
    8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
    9. Don't use alcohol.
    10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
    11. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

    Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

    Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

    Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

    John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

    Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

    Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

    Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

    Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

    Me: "How do you figure that?"

    Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

    Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

    John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

    Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

    John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

    Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

    Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

    Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

    John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

    Me: "We do?"

    Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

    Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

    John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

    Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

    Mary: She blushes.

    John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

    Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

    John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

    Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

    Mary: She looks positively stricken.

    John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

    Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

    Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

    John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

    Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

    Mary: She faints.

    John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

    With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

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