Asked my Book Study group a question......................

by enlightenedcynic 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  TD

  The "Server In the Sky" comment cracks me up. It's a fitting parody.

  Another, closely related question for JW's is: "What exactly was transferred from heaven when Jesus was born?" If it was simply a human body with the personality and memories of Jesus the spirit creature implanted, then what happened to the spirit creature? Did he continue to exist, or did Jehovah "Kill" the spirit creature so there wouldn't be two of them, one in heaven and one on earth. (I know this question sounds absurd to mainstream Xtians)

  Further, if the human Jesus was born with the personality and memories of this spirit creature, it smacks of Frank Herbert's concept of the "Preborn" (Where a child is born having a fully developed personality, cognitive abilities etc.) but JW's reject this notion if I'm not mistaken and teach that Jesus memories were not fully restored until his baptism.
• 

  funkyderek

  Estephan:

  Identical twins are born, they live together yet they grow up with different peronalities.You cannot clone a personality, can you? A sheep is cloned, from that point on they are two separate sheep, with two separate personalities, correct?

  Correct, but we're not talking about identical twins or clones. We're talking about atom-for-atom copies of a person. This would include a copy of the state of the person's brain at the time of the copying. The copy should be identical in every way to the original, so much so that we can say in a very real sense that it is the original. (Of course, from the moment the two copies exist, they would begin to diverge and could eventually have vastly different personalities.)

  Resurrection is a lot like the transporter device in Star Trek. The atoms in the reassembled person are not the same ones that were disassembled, but they are identical, and so the finished product is, in any important sense, the original. The philosophical difficulties only arise when the original does not get destroyed (as in the Next Generation episode "Second Chances").

  I am not made of the same atoms as I was a few years ago. But I am the same person (or am I?). I have continuity of existence. If, somehow, this was removed and I ceased to exist for a day or two, but then returned to existence exactly as before, can we really say that the new me is not really me? Does it matter in that case whether the atoms are the same ones as were in the original me? If they are the same, is it then really me? What if every atom in my body is replaced one at a time by an atom of the same type in an identical state? Is the resulting person me?

  What exactly is it that makes me me? Is it the atoms in my body or their configuration, or something else altogether?
• 

  TD

  Resurrection is a lot like the transporter device in Star Trek. The atoms in the reassembled person are not the same ones that were disassembled, but they are identical, and so the finished product is, in any important sense, the original.

  It might be a matter of perspective there. Important to whom? From the standpoint of everybody else this is perfectly true, --an exact atom of atom copy (Which is not actually the JW view of resurrection) is in any important sense, the orginal, but from the standpoint of the "original," continuity of existence may well be everything.

  I would guess it depends upon whether our perceptions of self-awareness and consciousness are real or if they are only illusions.
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  VM44

  The problem with with re-creation has to do with the preservation of personal identity.

  The question to be answer is this:

  Can a person anticipate to experience the sensory input of the future recreated body?

  Unless some sort of continuity is maintained between the person's present body and the re-created body, the answer to this question is "No"

  Re-created persons, even if they possess the exact memories and physical characteristics of the original, are exactly what they are, re-created beings. Copies

  Here is something to think about.....Suppose what really happens every night after a person falls asleep, their body is destroyed, and then re-created anew. No one observes this nightly bodily destruction/recreateion. How could you tell that you were the same person today that you were yesterday?

  Could the person living today reasonably anticipate to experience the sensations of the re-created body tomorrow?

  --VM44
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  no one

  
  I asked this same question 'bout a year or so ago and got this response:

  Lazurus died again because Christ had not yet died for the sins of humanity as a ransom sacrifice, been resurrected, and gone to Heaven to present His sacrifice to God. Once His sacrifice was approved of by God, that opened the way for all humans to be resurrected and offered eternal life.

  SO--------------I asked about the resurrection of the woman Dorcas (Acts 9:36) by Peter after Christ's resurrection and also the young chap (also in Acts) who fell asleep and fell out of the window. Stunned silence and to date no reply.

  I then asked if 'all of God's work is perfect', then how could these individuals die again since they by biblical implication were acquitted of Adamic death and no longer under inherited sin. More silence.

  That brought me to ask the question as to how many types of deaths there were. By Biblical implications, there is Adamic death (inherited) and the second deaath (lake of fire). But Christ died of neither of these; his being a martyr's death ( a third death?). And Dorcas, once acquited of Adamic death by resurrection (and this only implied), died by none of the above on her 2nd death. So, is there a 4th death? Why did she die? If God's work (creation) is perfect and animals can still be allowed to die, why not humans?

  So, if you're gonna get in a JWs face about this, mention those brought back after His resurrection. It takes away one of their responses.
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  no one

  No one observes this nightly bodily destruction/recreateion

  And I would appreciate you not asking me to divulge the specifics about what happens.
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  Estephan

  Everlasting life is only granted to humans in the "Kingdom of God". Since the Kingdom has not taken full rule, crushing all other kingdoms, everlasting life has not been ganted.

  Also the Law of "First Fruits" will apply where those that believe, and follow the Will of The Almighty, are granted gifts of mercy and underserved kindness before the unrighteous. The unrighteous have to bear fruit worthy of repentance and forgiveness, before they recieve the rewards of the heavens, as written.

  footnote:If humans can store data and recreate it in an instant, i.e. human geno project stored perhaps on a mainframe, how much more easier would it be for The Almighty to recreate us just as when we left the earth? The Almighty can count every strand of hair upon every living species in a millisecond, and at minimum also knows when every sparrow hits the ground in death. Let me remind you all, He created the DNA.......
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  no one

  
  Estephan,

  Since the Kingdom has not taken full rule, crushing all other kingdoms, everlasting life has not been ganted.

  Please forgive me for nit-picking, but could you provide the scripture that confirms the above statement. Edited to add:

  The Almighty ... also knows when every sparrow hits the ground in death

  If these are creatures created and meant to die forever, what is the point? Why remember what is meant to perish forever? Isn't that God's declaration for humans concerning those destroyed by Armageddon, that they won't be remembered?
• 

  bob1999

  Read all of Romans 6. In verse 7, it is clear that Paul is talking about those that have been baptized. The word "dead" means 'dead to sin' because the person has been baptized. When we are baptized we die to sin.
  
  Read it like this. 6We know that our old self was crusified with him so the the sinful body might be destroyed and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For he who 'has been baptized' is freed from sin.
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  VM44

  no one, you wrote:

  "And I would appreciate you not asking me to divulge the specifics about what happens."

  Not sure what you meant by this reply, unless it was meant as a humorous remark.

  --VM44