Church Fathers Purposely Lied about Jesus

by gumby 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  gumby

  Josephus as most know, was a Jewish/Roman 1st century historian. He was well respected by the Roman community and christians were zealous readers of his works.

  He is one person christians use as a solid basis for proof of Jesus earthly existence.

  Here is a quote that is used by some christians who strongly believe these words came from the hand of Josephus himself,

  "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

  – Josephus (aka Joseph ben Matthias) The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3: the so called Testimonium Flavianum

  There's a really big problem with this being his words. The problem is, ALL of the writers who were christian apologist in all of their arguments to validate Jesus existence.....NEVER quote these precious words of their beloved and trusted historian. Why? Why is it not until the 4th century that these words appear as Josephus words....and THEN only are they used as argumentation for Jesus existence?

  Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes not a single reference to Josephus wondrous words. Even in the 3rd century....Origen in all his battles with the pagans makes zero reference to these supposed words that came from Josephus

  If these words were truly existent in Josephus ORIGINAL writings, then WHY did not these early christian apologists/writers use them in jesus defence?

  I'm thinkin it's time we go on a damn witch hunt and find the bastards who added those words and sue their asses and get richer than a bastard!

  Gumcolumbo
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  uk humanist

  Good point, well made.
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  gumby

  Gee, ever since the nutsack thread went away, I ain't popular anymore.

  Gumthrownout
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  Kristofer

  How interesting...there are more writings on Jesus than there are on Plato, Socrates, Bhudda, and Genghis Kahn. THe writings by any historians examination are also more valid given the time and consistency of their writings.
  Yet no one denies the existence of these other historical people. Yet no one else has had more of an impact on the world......Hmm...some people just will do anything to NOT believe.
  Did Peter exist? Did Paul exist? Did any of the apostles exist? Or are they all just made up peoples too?
  You've got a lot of balls to be crucified upside down for someone that doesn't exist...but of course that's just a fable too, right? Fables gave way to fables until people were willing to be burned alive and torn apart by lions for them, right?
  I know you REALLY don't want to believe gumster..but c'mon, let's be a bit reasonable.
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  fullofdoubtnow

  Gee, ever since the nutsack thread went away, I ain't popular anymore

  Naww, we all still love ya Gumby. Thankyou for an informative post.

  I'm thinkin it's time we go on a damn witch hunt and find the bastards who added those words and sue their asses and get richer than a bastard!

  Interesting idea, be a bit tricky though, we might have to wait for the resurrection to do it, unless we can sue their descendants
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  Balsam

  Yah Gumby, learned some time ago someone added those words to Josephus writing to try and make Jesus appear where he apparently didn't even make a mark in history.

  Jesus is largely a product of Apostle Paul, and who knows where he got his information concerning a son of God, probably from other god son religions of the day.
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  gumby

  First off...thanks to y'all for makin me popular again

  Kristopher,

  How interesting...there are more writings on Jesus than there are on Plato, Socrates, Bhudda, and Genghis Kahn. THe writings by any historians examination are also more valid given the time and consistency of their writings.

  There are also lots of books about Bugs Bunny and Harry Potter....but because people wrote of them doesn't make them real. Also, the amount of writings on an individual doesn't make the individual "more true".

  ......Hmm...some people just will do anything to NOT believe.

  And some people will do almost anything TO believe.

  Did Peter exist? Did Paul exist? Did any of the apostles exist? Or are they all just made up peoples too?

  Who knows?

  You've got a lot of balls to be crucified upside down for someone that doesn't exist...but of course that's just a fable too, right? Fables gave way to fables until people were willing to be burned alive and torn apart by lions for them, right?

  Just like witnesses have to have balls to let their loved ones die from no blood transfusions.....and just like Muslims have balls who crash planes into big buildings for Allah and kill thousands.

  I know you REALLY don't want to believe gumster..but c'mon, let's be a bit reasonable.

  Your the one who doesn't want to believe. You cannot even address my threads argument. Gumby
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  Hellrider

  I think it has been proven long ago that those words were inserted into Josephus by christians later. There was a thread on this not long ago, and PeacefulPete had some good info on this. But: I believe that Josephus did write something about Jesus (in the place where Gumby found those positive words), but he, as a faithful jew at a time in which there was growing hostility between jews and christians, probably wrote something very negative about Jesus. Then, 3 or 4 centuries later, christians, who were now in power, as the state religion of the Roman empire, probably changed it into something positive. There is no way to prove this, but this is the argument I have for it: The whole "did Jesus even exist"-question is a very modern issue. In the 3rd or 4th century, this was not even a question to be raised. In the minds of these people, of course he existed, and he died on the cross and was raised from the dead etc. So they would have no reason to falsify history by putting in quotes into books by historians at all. The reason why these positive words (...) about Jesus is present in Josephus, is probably because the christians in the 3rd or 4th century changed what Josephus originally wrote (probably something mean...)
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  gumby

  Hellrider,

  Historians wrote what they knew and usually didn't water down truths to save their own arses. Josephus also didn't write about Herod killing every single baby under the age of two either....something I'm sure would have made the 'Palestinian Herald Sunday News' and something Josephus would have surely written about since he spent many years in Galilee and even in Cana where Jesus first miracle was supposed to have taken place. He wrote zip about Jesus....a man who supposedly turned Rome upside down.

  Gumsephus
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  LittleToe

  Israel was a small backwater province of the Roman Empire. Why would they give a shyte about some minor insurrection where a guy gets crucified and none of his followers fight to stop it happening?

  Further, they were quite content to put down uprisings with a rod of iron, so surely a few children being slain in a tiny village (population approx 100?) by a vassal king, would barely even register.

  Josephus was writing about the whole history of a vassal nation. Why do you suddenly expect that he'd write reams about a character who only made the headlines for a few years? Concerning the Christian sect, there was plenty of other literature doing the rounds...

  I agree with Kristopher. You appear to be going to extreme lengths to advertise your nutsack shining business, bro