High Control? Cult? (page 2)

JoeSinclair

Well, two questions, two wonderful sets of answers! thanks a lot guys.

I am impressed by the quantity of resources that you have shown me. I will look into it this weekend, along with my Bible History studying from the other post I made.

I must say my girlfriend is no longer an active participant at meetings or anything like that. She still believes the truth is indeed the truth but not in any active way, it is just bubbling underneath. Nevertheless I will have to be very careful in the way I present this to her, or indeed, let her discover it herself. I am aware that if I ask her to take me along to a meeting, or whatever it is called, I will be exposing her to exactly the kind of influences that I want to avoid. BUT, recently, for the first time in a few years, she went along to some kind of annual meeting thing that they have without telling me and it concerned me.

I have had a few chats to her about the whole subject of JW and she is largely unreceptive to the concept that the Watchtower might be putting out information that is untrue. She knows that I am a fully fledged (and proud!) member of the godless atheistic community and over the years I have been working with her on the subjects of evolution and old earth theory etc. (I was amazed to discover that there are still people who think the world began only 4000 years ago) and I think she is coming around - of course I wouldn't want to prejudice her with my own 'truth' so I am careful how I introduce my own ideas. But I think with a carefully handled presentation of well judged alternative ideas she will see what I'm on about.. so far I have had more success with the approach that the doubters out there are concerned more about the current operations of the Watchtower organisation than the religion as a whole. She found that pill easier to swallow.

Thanks again,

Joe

jwfacts

Joe, you need to find what is uniquely important to her, what clicks with one person makes no impact on another.

You said that she is coming around about questioning creation being only 6000 years ago. There are many interesting questions to ask about the flood. A global flood 4000 years ago is simply impossible. Pop a few questions, such as how koalas and kangaroos got across to Australia. Did they swim, or paddle over in canoes? How come they did not leave any dead ones or offspring in countries along the way? And what about those Tasmanian Devils and Tasmanian Tigers, they are even more isolated and unique. And kangaroos and platypuses? Did all the marsupials travel across together, or did one kangaroo get across the sea within the last 4000 years and then rapidly evolve into all the hundreds of different and unique Australian animals.

An ex-pioneer friend of mine stopped going to meetings and got married to a worldly person 3 years ago. However nothing he said could convince her it was not The Truth. Relatives and lovers seem to have a hard time gaining the respect they deserve. However recently she bumped into another ex JW, they had a chat, and the scales literally fell off her eyes on the spot. Everything that she had heard from her husband just fell into place. So don't get frustrated if you do not seem to be getting anywhere. Try to remain calm with her, and maybe slowly approach a question at a time.

Balsam

Joe,

It is particularly hard for the people who have been raised as a Jehovah's Witness to think outside the mental box that JW's are in. Having raised my son's in the JW's and their now being age 18 and 22 I see the problems their Dad and I created for them by not allowing them to reason outside the standard JW thinking. But they are getting better. My youngest son is agnostic, and my oldest son sees value to people living by bible principles but is not interested in it himself.

Your girl friend is exploring a brave new world unknown to her. I am sure she is very afraid of anything she considers apostate. Apostate is anything that questions JW teachings in regard to the bible. What makes it extra tough is that JW fully believe they are the only religion in the whole world that is approved by God Almighty and they believe the bible supports that thinking. Though a reading of the bible clearly shows that is not the case.

Listen carefully at the Kingdom Hall. Listen for catch worlds like "unbelievers" which is anyone who is not a JW. "Worldly people", which refers again to all of humankind who are not JW's. Even Christians from other religious denominations are not viewed as approved by their God Jehovah. These are just two of the catch words that JW use to make themselves feel special.

JoeSinclair

Hi Paul,

I will certainly give her all the time she needs, and I have experience of helping her with some problems before so I am familiar with the frustration and the two steps forward, two steps back kind of dance that we are about to embark upon. Fortunately we are both very much in love with each other, (which in itself shows that her belief is relatively weak, considering my outsider status) and I, myself, have a marvelous support network in place (manifesting itself as my parents, and a close bunch of friends) so I am sure this is achievable :-)

"Pop a few questions, such as how koalas and kangaroos got across to Australia. Did they swim, or paddle over in canoes? "

I often do, and I have a pretty good working knowledge of the science that backs up the evolution hypothesis. I have gradually brought her round to understanding that my viewpoint (rather than being unreliable, as she intially thought) is based on a thorough examination of the evidence for myself whereas she is aware that so far all of her knowledge about creation is based on the word of people within the organisation.

Of course, being a true scientist at heart, I cannot help myself but play devil's advocate and point out right back to myself that if we really do have an all powerful creator then he 'could have made it look that way' (and what a fantastic argument that is, too. Utterly un-disprovable. I wish I'd thought of it first!)

My girlfriend is a smart lady and fully capable of questioning her teachers, but she is used to just accepting what they told her up to now. I'm sure that given some prompting she can do most of the hard work herself, I'll be helping out with information when she wants it.

Joe

drew sagan

Hey Joe,
This past weekend I have gone through some pretty interesting discussions with my wife as well as a JW Elder. Just read some of their literature, especially the stuff dealing with the "last days" and then read this topic I started
Luke 21:8 Post
The truth of the matter is that JWs are taught proof texts. They can PROOVE anything they teach from the Bible. But they do not use the entire bible, as can be seen in my post. Books by ex-jws can help in your understanding as well. Going to the meetings is ok, just as long as you recognize their methods before you go in. Don't rationalize the arguments like they do, if there seems to be a hole in their reasonings then more than likely there really is a hole. Good Luck!

jwfacts

an all powerful creator then he 'could have made it look that way'

That is one of my favourites. When i started to leave I realised that this was the answer to every difficult question. I wish you all the best.

Drew, the idea of proof texts is so true. One day it would be good to write them all down. There must be about 30 scriptures that answers 80 percent of all Watchtower issues.

The light gets brighter.

Faith without works is dead.

Obey god as ruler rather than men

The faithful and discreet slave

This means everlasting life, taking in knowledge.

When you really think about them they are totally misused, and yet seemed so powerful once upon a time.

Although I had read the bible cover to cover I was shocked on leaving as to how many scriptures I had somehow missed. Things I never noticed that disprove so much of the Watchtower doctrine.

james_woods

Joe,

It must be obvious by now that most everybody around here thinks a lot of you, and we are impressed by your devotion and sincerety. It is always a good thing to see somebody come on board with your kind of intellect and attitude.

I have only one word of advice: be careful!!!

After all, black holes are a great deal of fun to observe (from a distance), until you fly the starship a little too close -

YF, James

AuldSoul

JoeSinclair,

Think about the implications of the power of the following paragraph when coupled with the power of secret Judicial Committee meetings wherein someone can be ejected from the flock without any explanation to the flock.

*** w01 8/1 p. 14 par. 8 Make Your Advancement Manifest ***
8 First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

For myself, there is no term to better describe an organization that insists that all members at least pretend to be "mature Christian[s]"—according to this criteria—than "cult".

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

rebel8

http://jwinfo.8m.com/cult_comparison.htm

JoeSinclair

Wow Drew, I just read your post "Luke 21:8, my discussion with an elder."

That's a great way of putting things. I hope you don't mind if I plagiarise you on that one! I've stuck the thread in my favouites and my girlfriend and I are gonna 'stumble' across some of these pages this weekend, I'm sure she will find it an interesting read..

Joe

High Control? Cult?

Share this