Nicely written!
"Mire of atheism..."
by Julie 93 Replies latest jw friends
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Utopian Reformist
I too, like many members here have always entertained questions about the dinosaurs and the fossil record in contrast with the biblical accounts of early history.
I also have doubts concerning the benefit, spirituality and supposed love demonstrated in many horrific biblical accounts. It is difficult to comprehend love, good and evil and horror coming from the same source.
Then, if confusion was not enough already, through research and the web I find out my religion is not much different than any other after all these years.
Now what? I turn to education (I am glad I had a rebellious spirit and earned my degrees anyway) and I turn to science for some explanation, and I find theories. Some I am willing to afford credibility because they are reasonable and some I cannot.
I still have trouble with the evolution from primates to humans. There are so many varieties of apes, yet where are the intermediate varieties that depart from simian and evolve into quasi-humanoid?
Where are the Cro-Magnums, Australeopithecus, Neanderthal? Humans are here, right? Apes are here right? So where is everything in between?
I guess I am now forced to begin researching these matters all over again in life, unless I give up on the idea of a future hope AFTER death. If death does not matter, then I don't need answers.
In the meantime, both sides are short of some very critical explanations. What if the horrors in the bible only seem horrific to us because they occur to the same species we belong to?
Suppose you were observing an ant hill, and noticed certain larger ants or agressive ants began to dominate the hill and then you intervened because you are more powerful and could alter events. Doe we seem like ants to a Supreme Being but peers to each other?
Just two and half cents!
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borgfree
Hi Julie,
Thanks for your answer. I wish I could answer better. I just do not believe God to be the horrible One that some do. The bible says that He created ALL things that would include laughter, joy, happiness, flowers, bear cubs, sex, and the bible says that God IS love.
I know all the accusations against Him and I wish I had a Godly answer. I can only try to think from Gods point of view, an impossibility, but just a couple of things. Suppose you had the power of God and you decided to build a nation of people who would be YOUR people, blessed as no other nation was ever blessed. In the area you chose to settle your people were a nation led by Adolph Hitler, Edie Amin (sorry for the spelling) Gingis Khan, Alexander the Great, and a few more like those.
You know in your wisdom that those nations would be a constant source of evil toward your nation. What would you do?
God did not order the torture of those people, he ordered their complete destruction. At least SOME of those people were committing horrors far worse that death. They were sacrificing their OWN children to a god in fires, burning their children in flames.
The same God who ordered the destruction of those evil people also has complete control of life, death, pain, suffering, etc. He can restore life, He can end suffering.
The writings in the old testament are hard to understand, the God who took on human form in the new testament did only good while He was on earth. Such a God could not create something He Himself does not possess, like compassion, mercy, joy, tenderness, etc.
Again, I look at our earth, the countless life forms, the endless vegetation, the sea with all of its variety. Then the vast universe with creations we cannot even imagine. I believe in THAT God, but, He is the same one who ordered the destruction of nations, how do we square that? Someone has a far better answer than I.
Do we hold our own governments to that kind of standard? In world War II, do we think Harry Truman was a monster for ending the war with a horrible bomb? Every time there is some kind of a war innocent people are brutalized. I think most people think that is ok, after all it had to be done to END evil.
We simply cannot understand all of the details of God's decisions. We can only have faith in a God Who has shown us such extreme love in other areas. I do.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
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Utopian Reformist
BorgFree:
I appreciate your noble sentiments about the Creator and his dealings, but I can't agree with your illustration. If the Creator were in fact just and loving and wise, why would groups of humans like Hitler (your example) exist in the first place?
Why would a Creator make certain groups special? If a special group were His fancy, why not keep the one he started with in the first place?
Why elevate humans above other humans by separating them with distinctions? If He is all knowing and wise, would he not understand in advance that the "emotions" he built into humans would create conflicts and suffering and wars?
No, the answer is not blind faith and it is not simple science either, more research and investigation is needed. We may have to die several more generations for new developments to answer these questions.
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borgfree
Utopian Reformist,
I do not know if you are an ex-jw or not but, if you have any bible training, I think you already know the answer to the why do people like Hitler exist in the first place, question. It is something like this, God created a paradise, put perfect man in it, man rebelled against God and decided he could break God's rules, God said, ok lets see how YOUR way works out. There must have been a given amount of time for man to try his own way.
Why did God make certain groups? I don't think I can answer that very well, I can guess. Maybe it was an example for us as to what God can and will do if we choose His way.
Human emotions leading to war? back to eden and the rebellion.
I do not consider my faith blind. Even as a teenager I considered evolution etc. I was an agnostic for a short time as a teenager. On another thread I quoted from Romans 1:19-22. That scripture says that creation itself testifies to a Creator. I believe that it does, whether or not we try to understand the mind of a Creator, that we can never understand, simply because if we could, we would be like Him.
I don't want you to think I am being rude, but I must now get ready for work, so if there is some reply you would like from me I will have to reply when I get home tonight. Have a beautiful day.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
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Utopian Reformist
BorgFree:
My first posting on this subject at the top of the page answers your questions. I will check back in the morning for your replies!
May you enjoy a peaceful and productive day!
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bboyneko
I still have trouble with the evolution from primates to humans. There are so many varieties of apes, yet where are the intermediate varieties that depart from simian and evolve into quasi-humanoid?
Simian and human DNA differ by only 1%. We are litleraly close family members. Look at us, we have a tail bone but no tail anymore, we have wisdom teeth that are solwy evolving away as our diet changes. We have a now useless appendix that was once used to digest raw meat and bones. We have left over code in our DNA from our previous lives.
Why must rejection of the Christian/Judeo-Christian god mean dispair and hopelessness?
You can beleive in an afterlife without the outdated vengeful god of the old testament.
God did not order the torture of those people, he ordered their complete destruction. At least SOME of those people were committing horrors far worse that death. They were sacrificing their OWN children to a god in fires, burning their children in flames.
The same God who ordered the destruction of those evil people also has complete control of life, death, pain, suffering, etc. He can restore life, He can end suffering.
I'm sure God, in his infinite wisdom, killed the evil babys and infants. Really, why didnt god just make the evil nations barren, the women unable to conceive and the men infertile..have them die out peacfully. Is it just to punish innocent babys for the ins of their fathers? The bible says no, yet god did it all the time.
How is this less evil than child sacrifice?
Do we hold our own governments to that kind of standard? In world War II, do we think Harry Truman was a monster for ending the war with a horrible bomb? Every time there is some kind of a war innocent people are brutalized. I think most people think that is ok, after all it had to be done to END evil.
No we do not, because our governments are made up of imperfect men. God however, is PERFECT and has PERFECT justice and PERFECT wisdom. God can easily make it so innocent people are not brutalized. Didn't he get Lot out of soddom so he would die because he was innocent? Why not just torch the entire city and kill lot along with it. After all evil must be ended. Just because you do evil in ridding evil dosent make it any less good..does it?
-Dan
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Utopian Reformist
Good info, Danny. Like I said, I obviously need to review the entire evolution thing from a new light.
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patio34
Utopian Reformist and Bboy,
Re evolution, primates, humans and in-betweens. According to my very limited understanding of this is that the most dominant humans either out-competed the Cro-Magnums et al or outright killed them. There are skeletons and fossils of these humans.
As to there being no 'intermediates' between apes and men, as Bboy posits, there is only some 1% difference. And evolution works not as a tree, but as a branching bush. Once a creature diverges, either by geographical barriers or famine, etc., there are no intermediates. They go onto 'speciation,' a new form of the creature and eventually can no longer interbreed with the ancestor's direct descendants.
There was a case of this with elephants recently in the news. Two species have developed and can no longer interbreed. But from the DNA they can tell that they used to be the same species. If I got that all right.
I used to criticize evolution also when I was in the Borg, but I had never read one book about it, except from the WTBS' perspective (biased). But once I branched out and read a few reputable books by scientists, i understood how limited I was in knowledge to be criticizing something I didn't understand.
Pat
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bboyneko
The other day I kind of wasn't paying attention, and my cat evolved into a lizard. I was pretty upset cus I dont know how to take care of lizards, and he wasn't as affectionate.
Three monkeys sat in a coconut tree
Discussing things as they're said to be.Said one to the others, "Now listen you two,
There's a certain rumor that can't be true.That man descended from our noble race.
The very idea! It's a dire disgrace.No monkey ever deserted his wife,
Starved his baby and ruined her life.And you've never known a mother monk,
To leave her baby with others to bunk,Or pass them on from one to the other,
Till they hardly know who is their mother.And another thing you'll never see
A monk build a fence around a coconut tree,
And let the coconuts go to waste,
Forbidding all other monks a taste.
Why, if I put a fence around this tree,
Starvation would force you to steal from me.Here's another thing a monk won't do,
Go out at night and get on a stew.
Or use a gun or club or knife,
To take some other Monkey's life.Yes! Man descended, the ornery cuss,
But, brother, he didn't descend from US!-Dan