"Mire of atheism..."

by Julie 93 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Julie

  Greetings to all:

  :I welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism,

  I found these words to be so interesting. I have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of God. I have seen assertions made that the bible portrays God as a homicidal maniac and these assertions are almost always backed up with scriptures. I have never, I repeat NEVER, seen one credible attempt to discredit these assertions. Back when I was one who thought the bible was God's word (as in before I read it, after all I was Catholic)) I always hoped that someone who knew more than me would step up and prove how wrong those who had sunk into the Mire of Atheism were.

  I am sure I don't need to tell you that it never happened. I investigated for myself and found that indeed They (those wretched atheists) were right, we (the righteous believers) were wrong. Mind you I reached this realization after serious contemplation and brutal honesty. It pained me greatly. Religion had never been anything but a source of comfort to me (mind you I never joined the WT-cult).

  To see some Good Christian up here pounding his chest and announcing that some are above the Mire of Atheism makes me want to demand answers and explanations. How can anyone reconcile the horrors in the bible with an all-loving, all-knowing God?

  My main point here is that many who believe the bible to be a man-made book of terrible tales reached that point after honest consideration of the material. As I have never seen credible explanations excusing the brutality and contradictions it leads me to believe that all our Good Chritian posters turn a blind eye to the ugliness and/or dismiss it as a "mystery" or some such nonsense. I guess they've got balls like churchbells when it comes to criticizing those who don't believe as they do but they are all veritable eunichs when it comes to proving their beliefs are based on sound reasoning.

  Marvelling at those who are stuck in the Mire of Christianity--
  Julie, who is sure she'll get no satisfactory explanations THIS time either
• 

  Ranchette

  I'm with ya Julie!
  I've come too these same conclusions.Like you said it's wasn't easy either.This is not what we wanted. We tried to make belief in the bible work, but found it to be like fitting a round peg in a square hole!
  Ranchette
• 

  Seeker

  Hi Julie,

  The thing about atheism is that you are free to examine and study everything under the sun without fear of what you might find. Nothing you find can possibly shake you, for if you find something that alters your world view, you merely do just that: alter your world view. No problem.

  The believer, in contrast, is always at least sub-consciously aware that certain areas of study = danger. What those areas are vary depending upon which belief you subscribe to. To take a neutral example, if you believe in a flat earth, you had best steer clear of astronomy and geography. In Orwell's 1984, he describes how a true believer in the system would sub-consciously reject a forbidden thought before he had even thought it.

  So when you question the world view of a Christian by questioning the morality of their God, you jump right into one of those danger zones for them. They absolutely cannot admit that their God could have a fault, so they automatically reject any suggestion that seems to indicate this. One way to handle this is to ignore the information. Another way is to attack the questioner. A third way is to wave the evidence away with a grand gesture and say 'God knows best. Who are we to question Him?' A fourth way is to create convoluted arguments that seem to explain away the atrocities until you look closer and realize that they were just using smoke and mirrors.

  We've seen all four of those approaches many times in the past. Only very rarely do we see your kind of response: 'Yes, those really are atrocities, aren't they?'

  Life is simpler as an atheist or agnostic. You need not fear any knowledge whatsoever. Even proof of God's existence would be welcome, for the atheist is such not because he or she has anything against God, but merely sees a lack of evidence for God. If such evidence were ever to finally manifest itself, they would gladly believe. So life is indeed simpler for the atheist, and much more complicated for the believer. And no, atheism is not a belief, but is a lack of belief.

  For you believers out there who wonder how anyone could be an atheist, remember that you reject thousands of 'false' gods because you see no proof for Thor, or Odin, or Krishna. The atheist believes just like you...but also rejects the one god you worship because of a similar lack of evidence. So when you realize why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why the atheist also rejects your god. And that's true no matter what god you picked as the 'true' god, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, whatever. They all pick one 'true' god and reject all the other gods. They just can't decide on which is the one true god. The atheist sees no evidence for any of them.
• 

  patio34

  Good rationale Julie. Seeker, bravo for the rationale of the rejection of many gods. Everyone rejects some gods. Thanks!

  I am starting a new thread looking for definitive answers to a common assertion by JWs. Please give me your bright mind on that!

  Pat
• 

  borgfree

  Julie,

  I really do not feel qualified to respond to your post. I know there are so many with abilities far better than mine, but I am not ashamed to be a Christian and so I will put my 1 1/2 cents in. I was taught from the earliest day I can remember that I did not need the education from school, armageddon was just around the corner and I would be taught everything I need to know in the New System. (New World back then) I also believed that, and did not apply myself to getting all the education that I could have. It shows.

  With that disclaimer I would say that I have arrived at some conclusions and have remained Christian. I do not know why God ordered the killing of men, women and children, including infants. I have been taught reasons 'why' some of those reasons make sense to me, some not so much sense.

  I could repeat my statements above about a lot of 'why did God' do this or that. As humans we are faced with some realities. If God exists, we can question all we want, we can accuse Him all we want, etc. But if He exists then what? Do we say, 'ok God I will not believe in you, I will believe that you do not exist!' Does that change the outcome? Wouldn't that way of thinking just punish ourselves.

  For my reasons, by research, and much bible reading I believe in the God of the bible. I believe that I cannot understand some things that He does, but I believe He has asked us to have faith for a few short years of our life and be obedient to Him and He will give us an eternity of blessings we cannot even imagine.

  I could make comparisons of how we punish our children etc. but so can you, we all have. I believe that whatever terrible things we may blame God for, that one day we will have facts that will give us the ability to really judge whether God is a God of love or not. Even with all of the bad someone might accuse Him of, I see the love He has shown to us, even sacrificing His own Son, for us.

  He is there. Whether we want to acknowledge Him or not is our business, you can deny a hurricane and say it does not exist but when it hits your area you will get the same effect.

  Thanks for letting me have my 1 1/2 cents worth, at best.

  Borgfree

  "You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
• 

  bajarama

  Julie,

  Your right, it dosen't add up.

  baja
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Thank you Julie!

  I'm an atheist, and to me "the mire of Atheism"=the rigor of critical thinking/rational analysis.

  "There's something inside your head..." - OingoBoingo

  "I wish to see, and I mean this most sincerely, I wish to see the last King strangled with the guts of the last Priest." - Voltaire
• 

  felix a

  I will say that while I am not an atheist, I also am not a Christian.

  I like what Seeker said:

  "The thing about atheism is that you are free to examine and study everything under the sun without fear of what you might find. Nothing you find can possibly shake you, for if you find something that alters your world view, you merely do just that: alter your world view. No problem."

  and...

  "Life is simpler as an atheist or agnostic. You need not fear any knowledge whatsoever. Even proof of God's existence would be welcome, for the atheist is such not because he or she has anything against God, but merely sees a lack of evidence for God. If such evidence were ever to finally manifest itself, they would gladly believe. So life is indeed simpler for the atheist, and much more complicated for the believer. And no, atheism is not a belief, but is a lack of belief."

  This reminded me of something that I had recently read by Charles Templeton about agnosticism.

  'The agnostic does not say, as is commonly beleived, "I do not know whether or not there is a God." He says, "I cannot know. There may have been a First Cause to which one might apply the name God,... but on the basis of the evidence the question is beyond resolution.'

  'As to whether or not there is a God, one may not simply beg the question by saying, "I cannot know." This is an intelectual cop-out, a failure to attempt within the limits of one's ability to seek an answer to what is surely the ultimate question. One may not legitimately say, " I cannot know," unless one has sought to know.'

  This is a point that K'lyn has made to me time and time again, that we need to seek and look for the answer. I happen to agree we need to seek. To be open, to be willing to change our beliefs or ideas as we discover new information. This being open to examining my beliefs is what has lead me to reject Christianity as the revealed religion of God.

  Just adding my 2 cents...

  felix a (David P)
• 

  AlanF

  I largely agree with you, Julie and Seeker. The very expression "the mire of atheism" says far more about the one using it as a whip than about those being whipped.

  As all JWs do, I once completely believed in the God of the Bible. Gradually I realized that the God espoused by JWs is not someone I want to have anything to do with. He is an angry, whimsical god, setting forth one standard one day and a completely different one the next. Gradually I realized that the God of the JWs is not quite the God of the Bible. This god, too, displays a thoroughly unattractive personality, one that most people would reject if displayed by anyone other than "God".

  What is one to do with such realizations? Do like most JWs and other Christians, and ignore the problems and tell themselves, "I'll just keep believing and forget about the problems"? That's being dishonest with oneself, in my opinion.

  I really have to laugh at the ridiculous lengths to which Fundies will go to set aside serious problems with their view of God. They'll reject all evidence that challenges their emotionally based beliefs. "God is love" they'll claim. But challenge them with solid evidence against it, and they'll invent any number of ways to get around it.

  Geology shows that macroscopic life has been around for perhaps a billion years, and that an explosion of life with hard parts occurred in a 30-million-year time span beginning around 550 million years ago. Predators have been around at least as far back as that "Cambrian explosion". The problem for the "God is love" contingent is that they can't give reasons why a God who would create a prey-predator relationship that has lasted half a billion years can be said to be "loving". Keep in mind that the fossil record shows a history of an "arms race" between predators and prey occurring many times. Periodically there is an explosion of new species, typical small and relatively unspecialized, followed by a gradual evolution of ever more capable creatures whose body plans are along the lines of the earliest in the series. Predators typically get bigger and have better teeth, claws and so forth, and prey get bigger and develop better defenses. A series is terminated by a mass extinction, after which a new series begins.

  A good example is the so-called Age of Dinosaurs. The period begins with the great Permian extinction of 225 million years ago, which wiped out some 95% of the species on earth. A few relatively small dinosaurs existed then, and over the next 160 million years there appeared wave after wave of new predators and prey. At the end of this period, there existed the massive Tyrannosaurus Rex, perhaps the most capable predator of all time. Prey included the formidable Triceratops, and the tank-like group called Ankylosaurs which had massive bony armor covering almost their entire bodies. Then, boom! at the end of the Cretaceous period they all disappeared in a geological instant.

  How do Christians explain such "arms races" in terms of a loving God? JWs simply ignore the problem. YECs claim that no such race ever existed, by stupidly claiming that virtually all of geology is the result of Noah's Flood. Other Christians accept geology but have no reasonable answers.

  In view of this prey-predator problem alone, Christianity is in deep trouble with people who think deeply about the world and its history. Atheism and agnosticism have no such problem because there is nothing to explain away. The world exists, and there are mysteries that we would like to understand but perhaps never will.

  Some of my dearest friends are sincere Christians, and each acknowledges that his or her beliefs have severe difficulties with regard to the above problems. They remain my friends because they don't try to tell me that I'm a horrible, wicked man simply because I don't want to put aside these problems. They're honest enough to admit that the problems exist, and that they remain believers for other reasons. Unlike Fundies, they admit that they don't have good answers to such problems.

  AlanF
• 

  patio34

  Alan,
  That is the precise reason I left JWs and then all religion. Dinasours have always bothered me, but then on watching the Disney movie, 'Dinasour' it dawned on me that in no way do they fit in with the Bible's teaching of all being eaters of green vegetation until Adam's sin. To me, it was the fatal flaw of the whole Bible. Then, the rest fell like a house of cards.

  Thanks for putting it into your usual well-written fashion.

  Pat