I need to try and get my wife to examine her beliefs. I hope to do this by getting her to think on her own. I've already tryed doctrinal issues with no success. Does anyone have suggestions?
Need some good reasoning points
by mavie 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jwfacts
Here are some questions to ask. Remember that discussing doctrine will just end in a tit for tat fight, but a good question may get her mind thinking.
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/questions.htm
Before asking too much more I strongly recommed that you buy and read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan, and then get her to read it.
Every cult strongly feels that they are the only ones that correctly understand doctrine. To read about other religions and to realise that there are many that all behave the same is quite eye opening. -
Will Power
try watching CNN - that anderson guy - they have really been covering the poligamy story about Warren Jeffs, all angles.
There has been quite a few comments (esp last night) about how loyal these people are and why. How the slightest hint that their lifestyle (beliefs) are challenged (threatened) and they could possibly have another waco.
substitute WJ for the GB of the WT and their stories are very similar, emphasis on different things, same indoctrination. -
Will Power
there might be a question or 2 here ......
1. Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?
Yes____No___
2. Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?
Yes___ No___
3. Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?
Yes___ No___
4. Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?
Yes___ No___
5. Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?
Yes___ No___
6. Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"
Yes___ No___
7. Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?
Yes___ No___
8. Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?
Yes___ No___
9. Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?
Yes___ No___
10. Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?
Yes___ No___
11. Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?
Yes___ No___
12. Do you feel the need to leave in secret?
Yes___ No___
13. Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?
Yes___ No___
14. Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?
Yes___ No___
15. Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?
Yes___ No___
16. Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?
Yes___ No___
17. ) Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?
Yes___ No___
18. Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?
Yes___ No___
19. Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?
Yes___ No___
20. Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?
Yes___ No___
21. Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest
Yes___ No___
22. Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?
Yes___ No___
23. Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?
Yes___ No___
24. Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system?
Yes___ No___
25. Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda?
Yes___ No___
26. Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?
Yes___ No___
27. Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?
Yes___ No___
28. Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices?
Yes___ No___
29. Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?
Yes___ No___
30. Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?
Yes___ No___
31. Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic well-being?
Yes___ No___
32. Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief, or sexual orientation?
Yes___ No___
33. Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?
Yes___ No___
Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?
Do you...
...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?
Yes___ No___
...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?
Yes___ No___
...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?
Yes___ No___
...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?
Yes___ No___
...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?
Yes___ No___
...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?
Yes___ No___
...have short-term memory difficulties?
Yes___ No___
...feel you have nothing to believe in?
Yes___ No___
...often feel anger and rage towards the group?
Yes___ No___
...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?
Yes___ No___
...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic practices?
Yes___ No___
This quiz has no scientifically predetermined number of "yes" answers to indicate a distructive group. However, answering "yes" to any of the above questions means you may need to examine your group and its influence in your life in those areas. -
Lady Liberty
Dear Mauvie,
Have you brought up the issue of Jesus being the Mediator for the 144,000 only?? I personally found that VERY offensive! The below article says Jesus IS our High Priest though. However, it is most interesting to read the definition of a "Mediator" and a "High priest". They are both one and the same, a "go between". She may find this disturbing too!
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
See Watchtoer 1989 8/15 Questions from the Readers
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Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ’s role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.
To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ’s "little flock," numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?
The Greek word me·si´tes, used for "mediator," means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si´tes was "one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law."
But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus’ mediatory role? As background, consider what Paul wrote about God’s Law given to Israel assembled before Mount Sinai: "It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:19, 20) That mediator was Moses. He was the intermediary agent between Jehovah and the fleshly nation of Israel. An agent for what? For establishing a covenant, or legal contract, between God and the nation.
Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus’ role as Mediator? Yes. Note Paul’s comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: "Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." The "better covenant" was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was "legally established." It laid the basis for some of Christ’s followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain "entry into the holy place," heaven itself.—Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.
There are other indications too of the legal nature of Jesus’ role as Mediator of the "new covenant." Commenting on God’s promise at Psalm 110:4, Paul wrote: "To that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge [en´gy·os] of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:22) This is the only Biblical use of the word en´gy·os. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: "The engyos guaranteed that a legal obligation would be carried out." So Jesus as Mediator of the new covenant serves as a legal pledge that "a better hope" would be realized.—Hebrews 7:19.
Elsewhere Paul uses yet another word having a legal sense, ar·ra·bon´, translated "token." The same dictionary says: "The Gk. word arrabon . . . is a legal concept from the language of business and trade." Note how Paul used this legal term: "He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) Both other occurrences of ar·ra·bon´ also deal with God’s anointing of Christians with spirit, bringing them an ‘everlasting reward or inheritance in the heavens’ as spirit sons of God.—2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; see Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.
Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.
This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus’ mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘the term "mediator" has a legal significance,’ and "although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant,’ as the context shows." Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as "the attorney and negotiator."
A modern-day illustration may help to clarify this, especially if you are not a spirit-anointed Christian. Think of a legal case in which an attorney is involved. His role may be not so much that of a lawyer arguing for justice as that of one who is mediating or bringing about a legal contract acceptable to and beneficial to two parties. Of course, you are not in that legal case, so in that sense he is not serving as your attorney. Yet he may be your very close friend who in other ways gives you valuable help.
Sometimes an attorney’s work produces results that benefit many others. So it is with Jesus’ legal accomplishments as Mediator of the new covenant. It produces what the Law covenant did not, a heavenly "kingdom of priests." (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) Thereafter anointed Christians in the Kingdom will work with Jesus from heaven to bring a blessing to "all nations of the earth."—Genesis 22:18.
The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.
Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, "attorney") of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s."
Those of ‘the whole world’ are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus’ ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ’s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind.
[Footnotes]
A discussion of covenants appears in The Watchtower of February 1, 1989, pages 10-20.
[Picture
on page 31]Here at Mount Sinai, Moses served as mediator of the Law covenant
[Credit
Line]Pictorial Archive (Near Eastern History) Est.
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mavie
Will Power, where did you find that list of questions?
Thanks.
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Lady Liberty
Wow Willpower,
That was a great list of questions! I think I just might send a copy of this to every Witness I know when we get the axe!
Thanks,
Lady Liberty
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JamesThomas
I hope to do this by getting her to think on her own. I've already tryed doctrinal issues with no success. Does anyone have suggestions?
Take her camping out in some great expanse of nature. Have her look through microscopes and telescopes, and ask her how a finite-little-tribal-war-god could possibly be responsible for the INFINITE wonder and beauty of the universe.....and some scientists believe there may be countless universes. I mean, why would we want to belittle our Source in such a way as to shrink it to a tiny deity? How unbelievably foolish and stupid can we be?
This requires stepping outside the asphyxiating confines of our mindless religious box; but until that happens, she will never be truly "thinking on her own".
j
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rebel8
with some ppl the only thing that helps is showing scandals about the org itself
once faith in the borganization is gone, life can return to normal even if many religious beliefs are retained
some talking points are in these brochures http://jwinfo.8m.com/activism.htm
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juni
Hi Mavie.
I think that WillPower's questions is a good way to go w/discussions w/your wife.
Like someone else said here, raising questions about doctrine always ends up tit for tat.
The questions are a neutral, non-threatening way of approach. She's not going to feel that you are blasting JWs. She hopefully will see the "light" by her answers. Atleast get her thinking. And perhaps some good conversations with you. Take it slow.
Wish you the best.
Juni