607, 70 years, 1914

by crazies 129 Replies latest watchtower bible

Jeffro

Well there were more than one exile for the Jewish people and during the reigns of Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin there was a exile for the nobility of Judah. This was followed ten years later by another exile involving Judah entirely to Babylon foretold by Jeremiah to be seventy years.

The point is, according to your model, the first batch were told they would be exiled for 70 years before the 70 years had even started. At best, that is meaningless. At worst, it's just plain cruel.
I agree with you that ther seventy years for Tyre occurrred during the seventy years for Judah whereby that period was of Babylon's greatest domination. There is no chagrin here but a point of agreement as the Isaiah Commentary nicely explains.
If a period of seventy years occurs during a period of seventy years, they are the same period. The fact is, Tyre wasn't subject for 70 years, but only part of that (34 years), because it was part of the 70 years during which Jeremiah said nations would serve Babylon. It's nice that you agree with something though.
So, we have two seventy year periods, one for Tyre which ended with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the other for Judah which ended with the Return to Jerusalem and Judah in 537 BCE. The former period was less than seventy years whereas the latter was a precise historic period of seventy years. Big difference between these two nations. Agree?
No, we have a 70-year period involved, and it ended in 539. A subset of that seventy years (34 years) involved Tyre's subjection to Babylon, which is what is referred to by Isaiah. Tyre was explicitly mentioned by Jeremiah as being included within the nations that would serve Babylon and was naturally included within that 70-year period. There was no need for some other separate 70-year period. You do realise, don't you, that not even the Society regards the two 70-year periods as being different? See Insight, volume 2, page 1136, paragraph 2. You are yet to provide any proof for the Jews' return in 537, or how that year is even possible in view of Josephus.
Celebrated WT scholars have not provided a chronology for the Neo-Babylonian period because the data is unreliable at this time but they would love to do so if it were humanly possible. We all live in hope!
The data is unreliable only in that the data won't do what they want it to. The chronology already exists. It's quite clear, with an abundance of evidence.
A broadly-accepted view of 609 BCE is simply inadequate to begin any useful chronology for not only is the date too fuzzy but the event itself is too fuzzy. Any chronology built on such a wobbly foudation must fall over. Such a 'fuzzy' event has no support in the Bible as you mistakenly claim and that is why Jonsson is forced to consider the alternative 605 BCE.
I have a working model, so my claims are not mistaken. What others claim is irrelevant. Where is your unfuzzy proof for 537?
We all Babylon fell in 539 BCE. We also know that Babylon, its king, land and country would be desolated after the seventy years, a judgement prophesied by Jeremiah which ended in 537 BCE.
Yes, "we all Babylon fell"... very good, you English become nicely. So now you're saying that the judgement ended in 537, which is just a lie, because nothing happened to Babylon's king in 537 because he was killed in 539, and the judgement of the nation was ongoing for some time after that, which is what you usually preach in order to draw attention away from the fact that the 70 years ended at 539.
So where then is the chronology for the kings of Tyre documented as you foolishly claim as 'well established"?
I'll post it once you give me your accurate chronology for the Neo-Babylonian kings.
You claim to have a good knowledge of the chronology of the period, but as soon as anyone raises known dates of the period regarding Babylon, Tyre, etc., you get confused and say they must be wrong or 'fuzzy'... but as your post 1212 shows, you're just not very good with figures.
scholar

Jeffro
Post 928
Yes, the first batch of exiles were told that they would be exiled until a complete seventy years was served in captivity whilst the land was desolate. This is neither meaningless or cruel because that is what Jeremiah prophesied as authorized by Jehovah God. Any complaints about this matter should be taken up with Jeremiah and Jehovah God.
Not necessarily, the seventy years for Tyre are different to that of the seventy years of Judah for several reasons that I have explained in detail to you. One thing that both periods had in common is that these were in fact concurrent periods but with different chronologies.
We have only one seventy year for Judah ending in 537 BCE and the other for Tyre which ended in 539BCE. Tyre was also singled out as one of the foreign nations and like all of the others would fade into obscurity as Jeremiah foretold in ch.25.
There are in fact mention of two seventy year periods , one by Jeremiah and the other by Isaiah and your reference to the Insight, volume 2 does not assist your argument but simply confirms the explanatgion that I have already given you.
Whatever the case the data is simply unreliable as Rolf Furuli critically demonstrates in his masterful study on the subject.
Your attitude to your own working model contary to that of other more qualified scholars simply proves that you are delusional and have a fertile imagination. There is no fuzziness about 537 BCE as Alan F relaized for he knows that 537 BCE is the only possible date for the Return home of the Jewish exiles.
scholar JW
Jeffro

Yes, the first batch of exiles were told that they would be exiled until a complete seventy years was served in captivity whilst the land was desolate. This is neither meaningless or cruel because that is what Jeremiah prophesied as authorized by Jehovah God. Any complaints about this matter should be taken up with Jeremiah and Jehovah God.

Don't blame the Society's errors on Jeremiah. In my model, there is no problem at all, since the message to those exiles was given after the 70 years of serving Babylon had begun. It is only meaningless within the illogical framework alleged by the Society, in which the 70 years had not even begun when the statement is made to the exiles.
Not necessarily, the seventy years for Tyre are different to that of the seventy years of Judah for several reasons that I have explained in detail to you. One thing that both periods had in common is that these were in fact concurrent periods but with different chronologies.
You cannot even give a starting point for Tyre's 70 years, or properly indicate the event for the starting point which marked the beginning of that 70 years.
We have only one seventy year for Judah ending in 537 BCE and the other for Tyre which ended in 539BCE. Tyre was also singled out as one of the foreign nations and like all of the others would fade into obscurity as Jeremiah foretold in ch.25.
You have no evidence for your supposed end-point, only speculation. You indicate that Tyre was one of the nations that would eventually fade into obscurity. (Like Egypt, which is still quite populated.) But you wilfully ignore the fact that the 70 years of Babylon's power did end, as the Isaiah publication explicitly indicates happened, ending Isaiah's '70 years for Tyre', which are obviously refer to the same period.
There are in fact mention of two seventy year periods , one by Jeremiah and the other by Isaiah and your reference to the Insight, volume 2 does not assist your argument but simply confirms the explanatgion that I have already given you.
Even the NWT cross-references the verses which refer to this one period. You are just a liar.
Whatever the case the data is simply unreliable as Rolf Furuli critically demonstrates in his masterful study on the subject.
Your 'brother' Rolf is clearly biased and offers no actual evidence to suppor the Society's dogma.
Your attitude to your own working model contary to that of other more qualified scholars simply proves that you are delusional and have a fertile imagination. There is no fuzziness about 537 BCE as Alan F relaized for he knows that 537 BCE is the only possible date for the Return home of the Jewish exiles.
My model is completely consistent with the scriptures, and that was my focus when considering the issue. You criticize me for putting agreement with the scriptures above agreement with secular scholars, and you criticize scholars for not agreeing with the scriptures. Jesus described your kind at Matthew 11:16-17. You are rediculous.
Why do you believe that 537 is the only possible year for the return of the Jews, and what evidence do you have to suggest that 538 is not the correct year?
scholar

Jeffro
Post 936
No, the message to the exiles was given prior to the beginning of the seventy years, eg. Jeremiah 25 was delivered during the fourth year of Jehoiakim long before the Fall of Jerusalem. You must get the history right as accurate history equals accurate chronology as I have told you many times laddy.
The chronology for Tyre's seventy years remains speculative as the Bible does not give such specific information, it is similar to Ezekiel's 'forty years' of desolation which also cannot be precisely dated.
There is no speculation for the end-point of the seventy years as 537 BCE as it occurred during the 1st year of Cyrus with a journey home by the seventh month of 537 BCE.
You seem quite confused about the relationship of Judal's seventy years and Tyre's seventy years as nicely explained in the Isaiah commentary. I suggest you improve your comprehension skills and try much harder and think, think deeply.
If Rolf Furuli is biased and he is; then Jonsson too, is biased.
Your model is phoney and is a lame duck because it is an abbreviated Jonsson hypothesis. I would call it Jonsson hypothesis for Dummies!
scholar JW
Jeffro

No, the message to the exiles was given prior to the beginning of the seventy years, eg. Jeremiah 25 was delivered during the fourth year of Jehoiakim long before the Fall of Jerusalem. You must get the history right as accurate history equals accurate chronology as I have told you many times laddy.

You are just making yourself and the WTS look foolish. Jeremiah was responding to the lamentation of people of the first exile, and it is completely meaningless to respond to them that they would be exiled for 70 years, years before that supposed period had even begun. Conversely, it makes perfect sense for Jeremiah to tell the Jews that Babylon's power only last 70 years.
The chronology for Tyre's seventy years remains speculative as the Bible does not give such specific information, it is similar to Ezekiel's 'forty years' of desolation which also cannot be precisely dated.
Jeremiah indicates that the 70 years for Tyre is inherently a subset of that 70-year period. The reference in the 70 years by Isaiah is therefore not a full 70 years at all. Similarly, there is no reason to apply a literal 40 years to Egypt, 40 being a significant number in Jewish traditions, representing 'a significant period' of time; (it is obvious though that any period of Egyptian subjection to Babylon ended abruptly in 539 if not before). The 70 years, as indicated by Isaiah and Jeremiah, definitively ended in 539.
There is no speculation for the end-point of the seventy years as 537 BCE as it occurred during the 1st year of Cyrus with a journey home by the seventh month of 537 BCE.
Your placement of the first year of Cyrus is dishonest and/or wilfully ignorant, and is inconsistent with the known facts.
Your model is phoney and is a lame duck because it is an abbreviated Jonsson hypothesis. I would call it Jonsson hypothesis for Dummies!
No-one cares what you would call it. You destroyed long ago any potential credibility that you might have had.
scholar

Jeffro
Post 939
No it is not meaningless at all. Jeremiah was simply prophesying about the fate of Judah and Jerusalem warning them of impending judgement lasting seventy years which was ahead of them as prophecy not history as you allege. Do you know the difference between prophecy and history? It makes sense that such prophecy was an encouragement in that the exiles would know that there was a time limit of their exile being seventy years.
Yes. Tyre's seventy years is a subset of Jeremiah's seventy years. the former ended with Babylonian domination in 539, the latter ended with the Return in 537 under a new king of Babylon with their Return.
So, what are the facts about the regnal year of ther return if you disagree with 537?
Credibility is not what I seek from this board.
scholar JW
Kaput

Credibility is not what I seek from this board.
So you're hooked on the avatars then?
Jeffro

No it is not meaningless at all. Jeremiah was simply prophesying about the fate of Judah and Jerusalem warning them of impending judgement lasting seventy years which was ahead of them as prophecy not history as you allege. Do you know the difference between prophecy and history? It makes sense that such prophecy was an encouragement in that the exiles would know that there was a time limit of their exile being seventy years.

Exiles being told in what you would call 617 that their exile would last 70 years would be in no way encouraging when 547 rolled around.
Yes. Tyre's seventy years is a subset of Jeremiah's seventy years. the former ended with Babylonian domination in 539, the latter ended with the Return in 537 under a new king of Babylon with their Return.
Both periods you refer to ended in 539. There was no judgement of a king of Babylon in 537. There was a judgement of Babylon's king in 539 that ended the Neo-Babylonian dynasty, put an end to the Babylonian empire, and was explicitly identified by Daniel as the period which had been numbered and finished. It is ignorant in the extreme to place the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:12 beyond 539.
So, what are the facts about the regnal year of ther return if you disagree with 537?
Josephus indicates that the temple foundations were laid in Cyrus’ second year (Against Apion, Book I, chapter 21), and Ezra 3:8 places that event in the 2nd month (Iyyar), corresponding with May of 537BC. Ezra 3:1 says that the Jews were “in their cities” in the 7th month (Tishri) of the year before, corresponding with October of 538BC.
jdough

the answer is here http://www.geocities.com/jerusalem607/
jdough

http://www.jonathan.freehyperspace.com/ It is harmonized here.

607, 70 years, 1914

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