British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

by Elsewhere 65 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Abaddon

  Don't forget Mary, I am 'mostly harmless'

  So agreeing to disagree is fine by me;

  However, I don't believe it's only a cultural, social and political problem, I believe it's also a religious problem simply because their culture and political structure are based so heavily on their religion, or their interpretation of their writings. Christianity and Christian lands have, for the most part advanced out of the Dark Ages, whereas Islam, at present, seems to be stuck there.

  Bar the sweeping statement (not ALL of Islam is stuck in the dark ages) and semantics (the cultural and political dimensions ALLOW religion to be problematical, but if those same backward political or cultural groups were Christians or Jews (or whatever) largely the same problems would arise so discussion of the religious dimension is actually far less important than the cultural and political one) we do actually agree on a lot. Try getting me started on how fundamentalism of any sort is largely a misogynistic reaction against the liberation of women from traditional roles and change in general and I think you'll find we agree even more

  I just get worried when sane people go down the road of Islam this and Islam that; if you agree Christians did the same thing at the same point of cultural and political development, why is the religion so worthy of interest? Surely attacking the religion will only alienate those peaceful Muslims we need as allies?
• 

  Spectrum

  Hellrider,
  
  I think you have a point. As long as there is a source of clerics to interpret the Koran in its extreme form ( eg as the Spaniards and white South Africans did the Bible) then it doesn't matter how well meaning European moslems are as things can get out of hand extremely quickly. And in the end when the dust settles we'll find that both sides are to blame.
  The best thing is for moslems to secularise themselves move on and stop harking back to
  620 AD, and definitely stop saying that they love Mohammed more than their mother, father and siblings. Don't they know how ridiculous that sounds? Mohammed had 12 women to bonk, not exactly the paragon of virtue, never mind all the people he killed. A 7th century Solomon.
• 

  Hellrider

  MuaDib:

  It's ironic to see you talk about the "naivete" of the left, Hellrider, when in the same breath you demand that the Islamic world be secularized RIGHT NOW. That's just as naive an idea as any I've ever seen, particularly when you admit yourself that these things take large amounts of time.

  ...it would only classify me as naive if I actually believed that that would happen...my point was to stress the urgency in this. If Islam is going to use as long as christianity did, then we`re going to have to live with this medieval version of Islam for 500 years more. Chopping of limbs on thieves, and stoning of criminals in the name of Allah. Hijacking planes in the name of Allah, "the most merciful"...My point is: Christianity became secularised at a point in history which was relatively "harmless". That is, 3-400 years ago, one determined bomber couldn`t kill off an entire town. Today, if terrorists got hold of a nuclear weapon, they could wipe out central London in a matter of seconds. The technology of 2006 combined with the mindset of the 1300s, is a very dangerous combination. My point is that there is no time! It doesn`t matter what we wish we had, the point is that there is no time.

  The Islamic world will eventually embrace an enlightened, primarily secular world view just as the West has (well, excluding America), but it will take time - probably many generations. Probably we won't see it in our lifetime. But it will happen.

  The sh*t is gonna hit the fan long before then, as a result of western politics (in the middle east, one-sided support of Israel, this is truly the key to the entire hatred of the moslem world towards the west) and our naive immigration policies.
• 

  Abaddon

  Hellrider

  ....my point was to stress the urgency in this. If Islam is going to use as long as christianity did, then we`re going to have to live with this medieval version of Islam for 500 years more.

  And your assumption it will take 500 years is based on what exactly? Western secularism was treading a new path. The Islamic world (to be precise the Arabic/Persian Islamic world, as most other major population groups of Muslims are NOT comparable to the Arabic/Persian Islamic world) will not take nearly as long; they way is clear. Look at Turkey; it started with secularism earlier, it didn't get screwed around with like Iran, and although not out of the wood yet is proof a Islamic state can live alongside Christian ones and move towards closer political and trading links.

  That's why the conservative elements of the Arab Islamic world are so threatened, they can see the inevitable is not a matter of Centuries away, but a Generation away unless they achieve their aims and drive the world to a religious war.

  Chopping of limbs on thieves, and stoning of criminals in the name of Allah.

  Judicial executions using methods that could well leave the victim in agony whilst they asphixiate is a practise of a Christian state.

  Hijacking planes in the name of Allah, "the most merciful"...

  Is it any better if it's in the name of the 'Glorious People's Revolution' or 'A million dollars or everyone dies'? Check your history of hijacking, Muslims are a minority group.

  You are falling victim to the panic-mongering. Have you actually counted how many people live in the 'problem' Arabic Islamic countries?

  Yeah, sure, there's billions of Muslims, but there are not billions of problem Muslims; even counting all former Soviet States ending in 'stan' there are only 360 million residences of such states and the number of extremists is FAR lower than the totl population. As the level of millitary advancement and GDP of these countires is on average biugger all - apart from a handful we armed, liked Saudi - there is not this massive risk some might like you to believe. They're too busy trying to stay fed to go to war.

  Sensible Western policies will ensure the non-extremist majorities in those countries don't get sucked into supporting the extremists out of sympathy, and the BIG Muslims countries (486 million people in Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Nigeria) remain disposed as they currently are (with real minorities of extremists ).

  Even if terrorists "took out" one or two major cities (which they have thus far failed to do), the end of extremism is inevitable; the West just has to be careful not to make many allies of the extremists by being heavy-handed or dishonest... we are facing a Generation where there will be tens of thousands of victims of terrorism, but not the escalation to Holy War so desired of the real nut-jobs. It will be a train here, a building there, but Western society (and those who want to share in its riches and freedoms) is simply too powerful force to derail.

  If the West ensures it is fair, and continues to outsource jobs to more and more countires thus 'sharing the wealth', there will be FAR more attractive options to Yussef in Palestine then blowing himself up.

  The danger lies in thinking of this as a religious war, as that will drive the extremeist's co-religionists towards the extremeists, rather than towards us.

  The single biggest thing that can be done to show the West is willing to play fair is peace in Palestine.

  I'm willing to bet my grandchildren's school history books will refer to that as a 'watershed'.
• 

  Hellrider

  Abaddon:

  And your assumption it will take 500 years is based on what exactly?

  It was not an assumption. I said: "If Islam is going to use as long as christianity did, then we`re going to have to live with this medieval version of Islam...". There is a difference. My point was, again, to stress the urgency.

  The Islamic world (to be precise the Arabic/Persian Islamic world, as most other major population groups of Muslims are NOT comparable to the Arabic/Persian Islamic world) will not take nearly as long

  And this assumption is based on what exactly? Turkey? Turkey is a whole different matter, it has a long history of strong ties to Europe and Russia (both as an enemy and as an allie, doesn`t matter, the influence is there either way), and cannot be compared to the middle east what so ever. Bringing up Turkey in this matter shows how little you understand about Islam and the middle east. Oh, and by the way, yes, it did get screwed around with like Iran. Actually, Turkey has been screwed around with a whole lot more than Iran, and for several centuries.

  Judicial executions using methods that could well leave the victim in agony whilst they asphixiate is a practise of a Christian state

  And what has that got to do with anything? Am I American? No, I am not. Have I in this thread, or ever, defended christian fundamentalism? No, never. Am I a christian? No. I have never glorified the U.S. in any way. But still, at least in the United States they dont whipe and stone women for having been raped. They don`t cut off the arms of a 14-yearold kid who stole a bread due to starvation. They don`t stone and hang people for homosexuality, or for having spoken about the "prophet" (piss be upon him) in less than flattering terms. In your own country, the moviemaker Theo van Gogh was attacked and beheaded with a butcher knife on a street in broad daylight, because he had had the audacity to insult precious Islam. You would make excuses for the assailant, I assume, and place the responsibility for that attack on van Gogh himself, for not having "understood Islam"? Yes, the americans should get rid of the death penalty. But they are not nearly as barbaric as moslem nations ruled by the Sharia-law.

  Hijacking planes in the name of Allah, "the most merciful"...

  Is it any better if it's in the name of the 'Glorious People's Revolution' or 'A million dollars or everyone dies'? Check your history of hijacking, Muslims are a minority group.

  Not only is that irrelevant, because we are now discussig current events, but I even think you are wrong. I would like to see some statistics on that. From what I remember, the wave of hijackings in the 80s were also done by moslems, although politically orientated and not fundamentalistic ones (the PLO).

  Yeah, sure, there's billions of Muslims, but there are not billions of problem Muslims;

  No, there are not billions of muslims in the world. There is a little over one billion. One billion of problem muslims.

  Even if terrorists "took out" one or two major cities (which they have thus far failed to do), the end of extremism is inevitable; the West just has to be careful not to make many allies of the extremists by being heavy-handed or dishonest... we are facing a Generation where there will be tens of thousands of victims of terrorism, but not the escalation to Holy War so desired of the real nut-jobs. It will be a train here, a building there, but Western society (and those who want to share in its riches and freedoms) is simply too powerful ; force to derail.

  Well, of course, if you think that is ok. Unless you happen to be on that particular train, of course. Of the 200 that died on the trains in the Madrid bombings, how many of them do you think wanted to have muslims in their country in the first place? I bet a pretty low number. The same goes for the London-bombings, at least most surveys show that europeans in general are against immigration (you, sir, are the exception rather than the rule). So basically, all these people died because of the decisions of politicians doing exactly the opposite of the peoples will, doing exactly the opposite of what the people on the trains and in the buses wanted. That is unfair, it is not democratic, and the Europeans won`t put up with it in the long run!
• 

  kid-A

  There is a little over one billion. One billion of problem muslims

  Thats a very rational and logical conclusion you have drawn there. So you have it on fact that each of the 1 billion muslims are a "problem muslim"? Wow! How long did it take you to sit down and interview 1 billion people? Must have been quite a sociological task. Again, pitiful "black and white" thinking and intellectual laziness. I have several muslim friends that are decent, hard working, completely rational and open minded individuals, but I guess by your reasoning they are still a "problem" due to identifying themselves as muslims? Hmmm, some of them are doctors and lawyers, but I guess in your books they are still "problems" right? Latent fanatics just waiting to strap a bomb on their chests to go blow up something? What a f**cking idiotic way of looking at the world.

  I wonder what your statistics are on the "problem christians?" Such as the christian fundamentalist terrorists that go around blowing up and or assasinating abortion clinics or doctors? The christian lunatics frothing at the mouth spewing off their fundy hatred and vitriol? The loving christians in the states that supported the carpet bombing of iraq and the "collateral" damage inflicted on hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqis including babies and children? But I guess it doesnt matter, right? We are "The West" and therefore anything WE do MUST be the moral highground, right?
• 

  Hellrider

  Ha ha!
• 

  MuadDib

  "The technology of 2006 combined with the mindset of the 1300s, is a very dangerous combination."

  True. That's why it's so dangerous to have Bush in power right now.

  Come off it, man. Islamic extremism is an extremely dangerous, toxic, destructive ideology. I think we can all agree on that. But look at the kind of weak sauce results it gets - 23 people died in the resort bombings in Egypt the other day. Appalling, sickening, atrocious - but how many Iraqis do you think American troops have killed every day on average since the start of Bush's precious war? The most conservative total estimate runs at thirty thousand civilian casualties, and the Lancet study from a year ago estimated it at one hundred thousand.

  Instead of worrying about who might get the bomb tomorrow, you might want to take a look at who's got the bombs right now, and consider the fact that their mindest is just as bloodthirsty, regressive, totalitarian, and ass-backwards as that of any Islamic extremist. One billion problem Muslims in the world doesn't worry me too much. Three hundred million problem Americans - now that's something to lose sleep over. Suicide bomber in the marketplace? Dangerous. American fighter jet raining phosphorus bombs on civilian areas? Way more dangerous than any Muslim fanatic could ever hope to be. The fact is that Americans are every bit as barbaric and dangerous to the rest of the world as the fanatics who want Sharia law imposed on all the rest of us - in fact, they are more dangerous because they already have the power to impose their poisonous ideology on other people and they do it every day. The fanatics can only dream and make bombs in their caves and kitchens.

  And as a side point: although allowing immigrants from the Third World into Western countries en masse is causing some thorny problems, not allowing them in will be even worse. Check the birth rate in your own country: Europe isn't making babies fast enough to offset the chronic labour shortage that will result when the current working generation retires. My country isn't either. But somebody's got to fill that economic gap, and people from other countries are the only solution unless you're going to force women to stay home and have children - and then what would separate your from the extremists? These immigration policies are not short-sighted, they are a necessary step in the preservation of our standard of living.
• 

  Hellrider

  MuaDib:

  "The technology of 2006 combined with the mindset of the 1300s, is a very dangerous combination."

  True. That's why it's so dangerous to have Bush in power right now.

  Oh for the love of Satan, how many times do I have to say that I am NOT a supporter of Bush and his regime! On the contrary, I am well aware of the fact that Bush is one of the idiots that is causing this problem to escalating! And unlike the leftists (who are stopped by strict boundaries of political correct-ism on what can be said, and what can`t) , I am even willing to say that a lot of the problem here lies with the religious right in the U.S. This movement is often referred to as the evangelicals, and they are Zionists! (yes, the conspiracy-theorists` favorite word, they are only taking their theories to far, ending up in anti-semittism). The evangelical movement in the US, tens of millions of people, is the powerbase that brought Bush to power. This movement started out (as a movement with a political agenda) allready back in Jimmy Carters days. Carter flirted with the evangelicals, but once he was in the white house, he turned his back on them. And ever since, this movement has backed republican candidates. Now, this movement is extremely powerful and wealthy, and are lobbying on Capitol Hill. The thing is, a part of the religious beliefs of the evangelicals, is that Jesus second coming will not occur until "the promised land" again is in jewish hands! And then, Jesus will return, all the jews will also become christians (which is what actually makes this group who are the strongest supporters of Israel, deeply anti-semittic, as ironic as it sounds), and you know, we will all be taken up in the rapture and sit on clouds with our harps etc, blah blah blah hallelujah. The jewish organisations, with the moneybacking of some extremely wealthy american jews, are also lobbying. There are some 8 million jews in the U.S., most of which of course do NOT back the Israelis actions on the west bank, but enough of them do, to add to the power of the religious right. This is the powerbase of president Bush! And consequently, Israel can behave in any way they like on the west bank and the Gaza strip. And consequently, Bush can deploy tens of thousands of troops to any middle eastern country, all under the pretense of fighting terrorism (and I am pretty sure Iran will get a taste of the B2-bombers pretty soon).. All of this is contributing to the hate of the muslims towards the west, and it turns more and more muslims into fundamentalists, or at least into people who sympathise with the fundamentalists war against the west. And the danger in that is that so many of the live among us! Of course I realise that the problem isn`t just the religion, it is the religion in combination with politics, and socio-economic circumstances. But guess what: That doesn`t mean that Islam (as in pure Islam) isn`t shit too. Islams very roots are political, it began as a religious-political movement, has always been a religious-political movement, and always will be.

  Bush got it all wrong, and so did the british. Terrorism isn`t fought effectively with F-16s and Tomahawk missiles. It is fought by closing down the borders!

  WHY do you lefties automatically consider anyone who is critical towards Islam, as a neo-con Bush-lover? All your prejudices about "non-leftists" makes it really fucking boring to discuss anything at all with you. because I always have to defend myself against things I haven`t even said, but which you believe I "have to mean", because I dare speak against you! Basically, discussing with you is like being silenced and choked by all the words you are putting in my mouth. And that fucking sucks, and I hate it.
• 

  Robdar

  Hellrider:

  Oh for the love of Satan, how many times do I have to say that I am NOT a supporter of Bush and his regime! On the contrary, I am well aware of the fact that Bush is one of the idiots that is causing this problem to escalating! And unlike the leftists (who are stopped by strict boundaries of political correct-ism on what can be said, and what can`t) , I am even willing to say that a lot of the problem here lies with the religious right in the U.S. This movement is often referred to as the evangelicals, and they are Zionists! (yes, the conspiracy-theorists` favorite word, they are only taking their theories to far, ending up in anti-semittism).

  The evangelical movement in the US, tens of millions of people, is the powerbase that brought Bush to power. This movement started out (as a movement with a political agenda) allready back in Jimmy Carters days. Carter flirted with the evangelicals, but once he was in the white house, he turned his back on them. And ever since, this movement has backed republican candidates.

  Now, this movement is extremely powerful and wealthy, and are lobbying on Capitol Hill. The thing is, a part of the religious beliefs of the evangelicals, is that Jesus second coming will not occur until "the promised land" again is in jewish hands! And then, Jesus will return, all the jews will also become christians (which is what actually makes this group who are the strongest supporters of Israel, deeply anti-semittic, as ironic as it sounds), and you know, we will all be taken up in the rapture and sit on clouds with our harps etc, blah blah blah hallelujah.

  Yes!

  The evangelicals have turned this into a holy war. One only has to sit through one of their Sunday sermons or listen to them talk. There are problems with Islam but there are big problems with the fundie christians too.