British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

by Elsewhere 65 Replies latest jw friends

kid-A

"The fact that some Muslims are falling for EXACTLY the same doctrines and beliefs the Germans fell for under Nazi rule should make it obvious this is a social and political problem. I mean, the victims of such toxic beliefs aren't of the same religion or culture so it must be a social and political problem."
Abaddon, have you read Jonah Goldhagens "Hitler's willing Executioners" ? It's a fascinating thesis wherein the author explains the degree to which german and european "christian" culture in general had been harbouring rabid anti-semitism for centuries. Culminating in the holocaust. He describes the overt complicity of many christian theologians pre and post-Hitler that really laid the foundation for hatred of the jews, describing them in far less flattering terms then those mentioned in the title of this thread. This involvement of the german "christian" church and culture in the holocaust is only underscored by the blatant support of the nazi regime by the catholic papacy. How easy for us westerners to forget this happened only 60 years ago in a "christian" country with the majority of the atrocities being commited by protestants, catholics and orthodox christians all over europe.
Spectrum

Kid-A,

"It's a fascinating thesis wherein the author explains the degree to which german and european "christian" culture in general had been harbouring rabid anti-semitism for centuries."

But what were the reasons for this rabid anti-semitism?

What would one of the 4 million palestinian refugees who had their land stolen by European jews say if you brought up the question of European anti semitism? What would an Algerian or Tunisian say about Jews who took up arms against them to help the French maintain their imperialist hold on these North African countries. Travel back in time and ask a Spaniard or a Greek whose side jews took when it came to the crunch.
kid-A

What would one of the 4 million palestinian refugees who had their land stolen by European jews say if you brought up the question of European anti semitism?
> I think its fairly obvious what they are saying. In any case, this has no bearing on the thesis put forward by Goldhagen which specifically focuses on the "christian cultural" antecedents to the european holocaust.
The point is spectrum, everything is relative. The religious christian fanatics that exist in north america are simply being held in check by a "secular" government and police system, which does not exist in muslim countries. Violence and fanaticism and inherent traits of virtually ALL organized religions, as history has proven again and again.
Regardless of the "original" philosophy espoused by Christ, yes I would agree with you, and his message of peace and forgiveness. The sad reality is that there is not a single example of "organized" christianity today that even remotely teaches, follows or resembles the original philosophy of christ which was far more similar to buddhism, then judaism.
Sad emo

Re the Qur'an quotes in Mary's post. I wanted to study them in a fuller context. This is what I find so far(!)
In Surah 5, the translation I'm looking at ( http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html ) seems to point to someone else - the unbelievers:
[5.59] Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?
[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.[5.61] And when they come to you, they say: We believe; and indeed they come in with unbelief and indeed they go forth with it; and Allah knows best what they concealed.
I'm paraphrasing v60 here - Say (to the People of the Book as mentioned in 59) "Only certain others are worse than you and will see more punishment from Allah. The ones worse than you are those who Allah has cursed, punished, equated with unclean animals, those who 'worship Satan' - these are further away from the truth than you" so on a scale of one to three, the People of the Book come second!
Next v61 is speaking of the hypocrites so I'll take the moderate view that v.60 was speaking of hypocrites and/or unbelievers (not People of the Book). It's an 'If there's one person I can think of who's worse than....' statement.
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.[2.63] And when We took a promise from you and lifted the mountain over you: Take hold of the law (Tavrat) We have given you with firmness and bear in mind what is in it, so that you may guard (against evil).
[2.64] Then you turned back after that; so were it not for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, you would certainly have been among the losers.
[2.65] And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
[2.66] So We made them an example to those who witnessed it and those who came after it, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).
Surah 2 deals largely with the giving of the Tawrat to the Jews and how they disobeyed it. Note, only those who ignored the law's requirements are condemned in v.65. Interesting to note what v.62 says too.
[7.165] So when they neglected what they had been reminded of, We delivered those who forbade evil and We overtook those who were unjust with an evil chastisement because they transgressed.[7.166] Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
[7.167] And when your Lord announced that He would certainly send against them to the day of resurrection those who would subject them to severe torment; most surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil) and most surely He is Forgiving, Merciful.
[7.168] And We cut them up on the earth into parties, (some) of them being righteous and (others) of them falling short of that, and We tried them with blessings and misfortunes that they might turn.
[7.169] Then there came after them an evil posterity who inherited the Book, taking only the frail good of this low life and saying: It will be forgiven us. And if the like good came to them, they would take it (too). Was not a promise taken from them in the Book that they would not speak anything about Allah but the truth, and they have read what is in it; and the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil). Do you not then understand?
[7.170] And (as for) those who hold fast by the Book and keep up prayer, surely We do not waste the reward of the right doers.
Again Surah 7 is talking about the time of Moses (Musa) and how some ignored the Tawrat. Again, look at 7.170.
These second two references seem to be only applied to certain Jews - those who did not uphold the Law, not ALL Jews. If anything, they seem to be an admonishment to keep to the Tawrat if they don't desire the 'better' option of embracing Islam.
Robdar

Here you go:
"... They are those whom Allah has cast aside and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made some as apes and swine..." (5:60); "...You have surely known the end of those from amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath , in consequence of which we condemned them: Be ye like apes, despised" (2:65);[13] and "when, instead of amending, they became more persistent in the pursuit of that which they were forbidden, we condemned them: Be ye as apes, despised" (7:166).[14]

Hi Mary, thanks for responding.
You quoted first from the book "The Dinner Table" but you left out the scriptures from above the verse. Shall I put those in for you?
[5.57] O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.

[5.58] And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand.

[5.59] Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
The unbelievers and the people of the book (Believers of the Abrahamic religions: Muslims, Jews and Christians) who mock are considered to be like apes and swine. Much like the Bible calling unbelievers "goats", don't you think?
The second passage you took from the book of "Cows"
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[2.63] And when We took a promise from you and lifted the mountain over you: Take hold of the law (Tavrat) We have given you with firmness and bear in mind what is in it, so that you may guard (against evil).

[2.64] Then you turned back after that; so were it not for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, you would certainly have been among the losers.

[2.65] And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
So, if you interpret literally, the above is directed at those who do not honor the Sabbath. This could be anybody.
Your third quote is from the chapter of "Elevated Places". Let's post up the preceeding and following verses, shall we?
[7.158] Say: O people! surely I am the Apostle of Allah to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He; He brings to life and causes to die therefore believe in Allah and His apostle, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may walk in the right way.

[7.159] And of Musa's people was a party who guided (people) with the truth, and thereby did they do justice.

[7.160] And We divided them into twelve tribes, as nations; and We revealed to Musa when his people asked him for water: Strike the rock with your staff, so outnowed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place; and We made the clouds to give shade over them and We sent to them manna and quails: Eat of the good things We have given you. And they did not do Us any harm, but they did injustice to their own souls.

[7.161] And when it was said to them: Reside in this town and eat from it wherever you wish, and say, Put down from us our heavy burdens: and enter the gate making obeisance, We will forgive you your wrongs: We will give more to those who do good (to others).

[7.162] But those who were unjust among them changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them; so We sent upon them a pestilence from heaven because they were unjust.

[7.163] And ask them about the town which stood by the sea; when they exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, when their fish came to them on the day of their Sabbath, appearing on the surface of the water, and on the day on which they did not keep the Sabbath they did not come to them; thus did We try them because they transgressed.

[7.164] And when a party of them said: Why do you admonish a with a severe chastisement? They said: To be free from blame before your Lord, and that haply they may guard (against evil).

[7.165] So when they neglected what they had been reminded of, We delivered those who forbade evil and We overtook those who were unjust with an evil chastisement because they transgressed.

[7.166] Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

[7.167] And when your Lord announced that He would certainly send against them to the day of resurrection those who would subject them to severe torment; most surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil) and most surely He is Forgiving, Merciful.

[7.168] And We cut them up on the earth into parties, (some) of them being righteous and (others) of them falling short of that, and We tried them with blessings and misfortunes that they might turn.
Notice that the scripture says "be as apes, despised and hated". Not that they are apes. Besides, have you ever met an ape? Disgusting creatures, really. Who would want to be like that? Yuk. Mary, you are making the mistake of interpreting the Quran literally. Most Muslims do not interpret the Quran in a literal sense.
Anyway, it is my opinion that if you are going to literally interpret the Quran, then you must literally interpret the Bible. And if you do, I don't see how the above is any worse than some of the stuff I've read in the Bible. Seems rather mild to me.
Robdar

Sad Emo, I enjoyed your thoughts about the quotes that Mary supplied.
KidA, Abaddon, Sad Emo, MuadDib and others: It is great to see your reasonable posts in a inflammatory thread. Good job!
Abaddon

Mary
Sorry I wasn't there in 5 minutes Mary, but there are more interestesting things in life than correcting ignorant misconceptions or downright lies, although you've now gone so far into wicky-whacky land it is funny. But your sarcasm is very misplaced as you're as wrong as it is possible to be... I love it when someone doesn't quote a passage in full to hide the context (or trusts their sources enough to c&p biogtry unknowingly);
Surah 5:55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
56. As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.
57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).
So, the first part of this is obviously advising Muslims to trust Muslims first and not to be friends with those who mock their faith whether they are People of the Book or non-believers.
58. When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.
59. Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"
Contextually this is referring to those (a) who mock or disapprove of Muslims and (b) who are people of the book, i.e. Christians or Jews.
60. Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah.
There is something worse than the aforementioned people (a) who mock or disapprove of Muslims and (b) who are people of the book,
those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
Now where on god's green Earth in the name of textual analysis does it say Jews or Christians are "transformed into apes and swine"? It says there is something WORSE than People of the Book who mock or disapprove of Muslims, those who worshipped evil; People of the Book are believers in the one god and by definition therefore cannot worship evil as god is not evil.
61. When they come to thee, they say: "We believe": but in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.
62. Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and rancour, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.
63. Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.
These three verses are obviously referring to those who DO NOT KEEP the law, it is not a general condemnation as we read a few verses later;
69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
So, no Universal condemnation of Jews as you claim Mary, which either means you're greviously misinformed, or are trying to get away with a blatent lie about Muslims... moving swiftly on to your next false claim... again, nice quoting of the verse out of context; either you were... errr... 'silly' enough to take these at face value from whereever you got them, or think WE are too silly to look it up and see you are making false claims;
Surah 2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Oh yes, we can just feel the hate towards Jews in the lines "those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)... any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Do I have to do little rolly eyes so you know Im being sarcastic?
63. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah."
64. But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.
65. And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
Ah, so it's actually talking about people who didn't observe the SABBATH; not what you claimed, although I am SURE you will try to wriggle out of that with the absolutely stellar level of intellectual honesty you're showing us here... now, with the last Surah you AGAIN repeat your trick of taking something out of context...
Surah 7:159. Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth.
Oh yes, we can see how valid your argument about Jews being condemned in the Quaran is Mary; do please benefit us with more of your wisdom...
160. We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.
161. And remember it was said to them: "Dwell in this town and eat therein as ye wish, but say the word of humility and enter the gate in a posture of humility: We shall forgive you your faults; We shall increase (the portion of) those who do good."
162. But the transgressors among them changed the word from that which had been given them so we sent on them a plague from heaven. For that they repeatedly transgressed.
163. Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.
164. When some of them said: "Why do ye preach to a people whom Allah will destroy or visit with a terrible punishment?"- said the preachers:" To discharge our duty to your Lord, and perchance they may fear Him."
165. When they disregarded the warnings that had been given them, We rescued those who forbade Evil; but We visited the wrong-doers with a grievous punishment because they were given to transgression.
166. When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
So, in context, again it is those who violate God's law who are described as such, NOT Jews.
I really can't recall an ocasion on this board where someone has been so massively ill-informed, and as there's ALWAYS a few Creationists here that really takes some effort... don't misunderstand me, the Quaran is shite on a level only matched by the Book of Mormon, but that fact is seperate to your false claims... and it's not as though the Bible is much better...
Hellrider
As my analysis shows, if one actually quotes entire passages in context, it's clear there is no Universal condemnation of Jews in the Quaran.
kid-A
Not read the book, but "I know the tune", so to speak...
Spectrum
Don't forget that many British and US national papers are in one way or another controlled by Zionists which suits these goverments because they can use them to whip up anti-islamic sentiment for their next invasion or aerial bombing of a muslim country, in this case Iran.
Oh yes, Zionists, of course... like the West needed help from Zionists to royally screw-up the Middle East? Consider my eyeballs rolled...
The difference between Islam and Christianity is at source. Christ's message was uncompromising spread of peace and love by his followers(at least until his judgement day when he will personally wipe out all unworthy people according to JWs)
Sorry Spectrum, your reading of the Christian message as enacted and delivered by its followers is as partial as Mary's reading of the Quaran.
There is undeniably big difference between the two doctrines. What happened to christianity after is another matter.
So Christians (averaged across time) are faithless often violent followers of a peaceful man and Muslims (averaged across time) are the normally peaceful faithful followers of a violent man? Wow, moral highground!
Abaddon

Hey Robdar, same back at you; we seem to have been typing our posts up at the same time...
nice one too sad emo...
Mary

Abaddon, I will ignore you totally ignorant remarks about me and ask why do Muslim clerics specifically quote these scriptures in condemnation of the Jews if that's not what it's talking about?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/memrireport.html
Hellrider

Hellrider As my analysis shows, if one actually quotes entire passages in context, it's clear there is no Universal condemnation of Jews in the Quaran.

Abaddon: That`s ok, to a certain extent I agree with Robdar and Sad Emo. I should have mentioned in my post that the other accepted interpretation of the passage is that of the "unbelievers". It`s just that exactly who these unbelievers are, is a matter of some disagreement among the Islamic scholars...This british "college" has obviously taken the very conservative view, and attributing the "pigs and apes"-quote to jews in general. This is no so uncommon, this view is an accepted interpretation among many of the imams, and from what I remember, this is discussed thoroughly in the Hadith. The question among the theologians of Islam, is whether this passage refers to:
1) People who just won`t believe in God
2) People who are christians or jews, but are "secularised" and modern, and separate between religion and "daily life", which is something Islam traditionally is very much against. Ask any moslem, and he will say that Islam is not just a religion, it is a "way of life", it is something that affects every aspect of day-to-day-life, much in the same way as orthodox judaism.
3) Jews and christians in general, for having been on the "right path", but have failed to accept the logical conclusion to their religious history, which is Islam. The old Testament, the patriarchs, Abraham, the prophet Jesus, were all just leading up to, and preparing the way for Mohammed and the Quran, the full revelation of Gods wisdom and plans.
It`s not just as simple as your analysis, because a religion is not just the religions holy texts, it is the religions history, the current and previous practices within the religion, the current (and previous) interpretations and commentaries of the religious texts. Traditionally, the nr.3 -interpretation I outlined above, has been a common interpretation of the passages in question, and that was my point. The "jews are pigs and apes"-view (based partially on these passages) is certainly a part of the history of Islam.
Robdar:
Anyway,;it is my opinion ;that if you are going to literally interpret the Quran, then you must literally interpret the Bible And if you do, I don't see how the above is any worse than some of the stuff I've read in the Bible Seems rather mild to me
I agree that this is no worse than the Bible, especially the OT. In comparison to certain passages in the OT, yes, it is mild. But I don`t really agree in comparing the way to interpret the Quran with the way to interpret the Bible. The thing is, all "interpretation" of the Quran is done very cautiously, because the view on the Quran is that it is a work of revelation! It is not just "inspired" (what does "inspired" mean anyway, btw...), it is, according to the legend, given to mankind, literally whispered into the ear of Mohammad by an angel. The legend also says that the Quran has always existed in the heavens, and that the Quran that was given to Mohammad is just a copy of the (immaterial or material, here it is unclear) Quran that has always existed in the heavens. Needless to say, this leaves very little room for interpretation, and no room for reinterpretation. Of course, the Quran is and always was interpreted (tons of commentaries), but in my opinion, always in a very conservative and true-to-the-text-manner. My point is: It isn`t possible to compare the Bible and the Quran in matters of "literal interpretation". The Quran is the word of God, word for word, spoken directly from the mouth of Allah, via an angel (or Allah himself, the Quran gives at least three different versions of this), into the ear of Mohammad. I think personally that it is things like this that are some of the mayor obstacles to a secularisation of Islam.

British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

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