HELP PLEASE---family emergency

by apostlestate 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jgnat

    A tornado chaser doesn't need any lessons from me on risk-taking. I think you have evaluated your chances at success and come to a fair conclusion. YOU DO HAVE a good shot right now. IT MIGHT BE THE PERFECT TIME. The organization is getting stupidly insular right now, it must be annoying to the old-timers hoping for some reform.

    I'm an old chess player. Don't reveal your whole game plan at once. Make a couple of moves and see how he responds. Your dad is in for a very rude shock. If he's been depending on the "celebrated scholars" at Bethel to have done their homework, they haven't. He will find precious little information to back up the WT doctrine on chronology.

    And by the way, WE DO HAVE some success stories here on the board. Amazing 1914 got his whole family out. Ithinkisee brought out his wife. Some of the husbands with newly-studying wives took our advice and managed to nip off the Watchtower influence.

  • Kudra

    uh... are you really a TORNADO chaser or are were you just using that as a metaphor? Which was what I thought when you first said it.
    That's very cool -either way.

  • mouthy

    Welcome to the board. BUT I am sorry to tell you I think your gonna lose your father for good. He will not swallow the truth.... I had a support group 700 used it. VERY few have got anyone out in the family---- I hate to pour cold water on your eagerness. but to be forwarned is to be forarmed.

    You see the WT took over MINDS!!!! Just as a robot is set to obey so were we.... Let some one else tell your Dad the fact of life.-Keep your family.... I am willing to mail letters from Canada to any family members......But one thing you do have now is the freedom to act independntly--- Just know that in our eagerness we some time goof, I have been there done that ((((HUG)))

  • MerryMagdalene

    Welcome from me too (better late than never)...

    Here's a favorite of mine, hope you like it:

    I'm wishing all the best for you and yours!


  • willyloman
    explaining 1914 will be easy now--the road is plowed, i'm ready to roll

    You've gotten some very good advice here, and some that won't do you any good in this situation. Apparently, you only heard the advice you were hoping to get. That's okay; most people do. But do yourself a big favor and go back and read the comments that urge you to just take it easy and chill.

    Your subject headline: "family emergency" says it all. This is not an emergency. This is your dad, the fully immersed elder, challenging you to overturn the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's teachings. This is you, in a big hurry to pounce on this opportunity.

    You aren't seeing the big picture. He's comfortable asking you to do the reseach because he has a set of expectations:

    1. He is almost certain that in doing this research, you will see the folly of your ways and embrace "the truth."

    2. If that doesn't happen, it won't be about the material or the research; it will prove you have been overreached by Satan and are completely "gone."

    What you aren't getting is that he doesn't think it is possible to prove the WTS wrong about anything. Do you hear that? Read it again - it's IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, says so right in the scriptures, and God (Jehovah) speaks through the organization. Ergo, the organization doesn't lie, either.

    So you and your dad are entering this room using different doors. From his perspective, this is about reactivating you and bringing you "back" to the Kingdom Hall. From yours, this is about proving the WTS to be a stinking liar and your dad, dazzled by your brilliance, having an epiphany and saying, "My God, man, I've been lied to. Let's go set fire to the Hall."

    You are disfellowshipped. In his mind, that certifies that you are miles away from Jehovah's spirit. Therefore, no argument, no amount of "so-called knowledge" you possess, can possibly be worth listening to. And he won't.

    But that's just my opinion. I hope I'm wrong.

  • apostlestate

    willy loman has a good point, need to slow up and check myself. Twas a good dose of reality and probability. With that in mind, diligent creativity and good sense must be tools of the trade, i think. And i must never be a victim of my own wishful thinking.

    now notice what jgnat wrote. NOW CAN BE THE TIME! Their growth has been stalemated (i would guess mostly due to the web)--and it is very possible that your efforts are slowly chipping away at them. We must continue to fight! However we must constantly adjust to the moment and be on fervent watch for any and every oppurtunity. I plan to do so now, and maybe my bubble will be burst soon, but i don't think so. I can be soooooo stubborn. If a battle plan does not work and the troops are still alive, they must regroup and form new tactics. I myself have only this to fight for and can finally feel a new purpose. Either that or i'm completely nutz.

    As for the letter to my dad,well, it's not just aletter to my dad. I want to create a perfect apologetic for those in my past that i desire to contact again-- i still have quite a bit of respect amongst my old compatriots, even though i'm df'd. I understand that the chance of success is nill, but that does not destroy my hope. I also suspect that this might do me more good than him--right now he thinks i'm stupid and weak for not staying close to "God's true organization" and atleast a good fight back would secure more esteem for myself.

    In fact, i pretty much count on my father not responding well, that's why i have plans b,c,d, and e, and i am excited about them too.

    AS mentioned before, if/when he does not respond i'm going to raise a ruckus. And i aint no slouch neither.

  • KW13

    as i said earlier good luck but let me add...

    Conditioning means an individual over a long period of time has been told/taught something. Your dad is an elder which means he is about as far as he can go. Don't expect years of belief to become nothing in 5 minutes.

    My mum saw it as an attack if i showed her everything at once, raised my voice in frustration (even if she did first) and also when i found evidence that contradicted her, she made it either NOT credible or ignored parts of it and not all (by her choice).

    Don't just dive in and say "607 is a lie" or "this is a lie".

    For you to make progress you have to be the BETTER person and sometimes walk away when they 'seem' to be getting the better of you. This is hard but i started doing it now with mum and making the whole project last longer has shown some good signs!

  • jwfacts

    Great story, I love the way you write. PM me if you have any specific questions that you want to ask so that I dont miss them.
    I think the most successful way is to ask questions, which is what your father has asked you to do. There have been other threads here that have a lot of good questions to ask. You are in a good position since you have been out for a number of years so have experienced the real world.
    You could start by saying what you pioneer partner was up to. When he was chosen for Bethel, a decision that is directed by holy spirit, this made you question whether Jehovahs holy spirit really directs the WTS. With the experience you have had over the last few years you realise JWs are no different from many other other religious groups that are convinced they are right. This has led you to think the WTS is not the only true religion. Then you can ask your questions, but in a non threatening way so that he does the research and comes to his own conclusions. Even send him some articles that others have written, such as on blood, 607, disfellowshipping, its history. He would never normally read them as they will be perceived to be apostate, but since he is trying to help his son he may be inclined to. Tell him that the article made a lot of sense to you, is it right, or is there some wrong reasoning in it?
    The reason not to get your hopes up is there is two sides to every story. The JW side is very weak in points, but people clasp on to what they want to believe.
    KUDRA, thanks for what you wrote. The reason I have not been able to convince my parents is that my father is a Circuit Overseer. They have too much to loose if they admit they were wrong. At forty Dad was set to be very rich when he retired. Instead they gave it all up for the WTS and now are 60 and facing retirement from the Circuit with only enough assets to scrape by for the remainder of their lives. To throw in the towel, say it is all wrong and loose their vast network of friends is just too much for them. When my wife fell pregnant it did change things as they were very eager to keep in touch with the grandchild and so it was a double tragedy when she had a miscarriage. Anyway, I am confident they will not shun me once the dust all settles.
    On a better note. In the last 2 weeks I have caught up with 3 friends that were all d/f from my congregation within the last 3 years. Since then the parents of 2 of them have left the WTS. The 60 year old father of one was so angry when the elders disciplined him for talking to his d/f son that he has not walked into a kingdom hall since. With the third one the situation is more like my own. The parents are career Bethelites, travelled the world on construction assignments. The father has not said even one word to the daughter since she was disfellowshipped, but the mother secretly keeps in touch. So there is hope KUDRA and each year more and more parents are coming to relise disfellowshipping is not acceptable and starting to open their eyes.

  • outoftheorg

    The use of reasoning with a person who has BELIEFS is difficult.

    There is an old saying that " it is almost if not completely impossible to "reason a person out of a situation that he was not reasoned into".

    Beliefs are installed into our brains through the use of our emotions and fears.

    Using simple situations like the membership of the wbts with the United Nations non governmental organizatons for about 10 yrs. May be more shocking and easier to understand and explain.

    Think about your fathers emotions and what things would really catch his attention that are rather simple to describe, prove and discuss the hypocrity of it all.

    At least these are the things that had the most influence with me. Best wishes and good LUCK with your plans. I hope all goes well with you.


  • apostlestate

    merry magdalene posted a link that is quite enlightening- it graphs out what many of us (anyone bred to spin their wheels in judge rutherford's ad campaign) have known since we could speak: PEOPLE LIKE THEIR BELIEFS AND FEEL THEY NEED THEM.

    Were we not, however, trained to handle objections?

    I had my own personal dilemna with Noah's flood-- a global deluge is simply not scientifically sound. This almost destroyed me, and to accept it was like extracting my own liver. I needed and wanted to believe the fundamentalist rendering--if the things the bible stated as fact were simply allegory and lessons then where did that leave us? Then i realized that my strong point was biblical knowledge-- and if the power was taken away from that then i was just ordinary. For weeks it was like a small blender in my brain. Then i learned that the Hebrew word for earth and land were the same. So i was able to consider the possibility of a localized flood and the pain subsided. But that illustrated to me firsthand how painful a change in thinking can be....

    I must factor this in--point reemphasized merry--tx

    personally i believe that survival isn't our deepest motivation--it is living.

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