They upset me and depressed me :~(

by Spectrum 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  IronClaw

  Spectrum, I used to be like that trying to defend an indefensible situation but then privately knowing that it confused me too and I could not accept that God would do such a thing. You would be surprised how many JWs privately question this.

  This is exactly how I always thought as a Jdub. Could never understand things like that. For instance I could never get over the fact that God would kill sons for the error of their fathers. ie: King Davids' son. If we truly are created in Gods image, then why does this kind of justice bother us?
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  JamesThomas

  NowImFree, what are your beliefs concerning the destiny of those who do not, and never will, accept Jesus as their saviour? Will his judgments and disciplinary actions contrast those of the god of the OT?

  j
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  A Paduan

  At one point they said that I was getting too precious about the murdered children

  They want it so badly to be true that they do eventually sound like crazy people. I have met some that are vicious in their desire to maintain the collective vision of 'truth'. It's an interesting social phenomena.
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  NowImFree

  J,

  If you believe the bible, which I do, it says there will be both a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. One group will be given everlasting life and the other group will be given everlasting judgement. Of course I don't know what exactly hell is or what it entails nor do I want to know, but I do believe that those that do not want God in their lives and do not think they need salvation will have their wish and will live eternally separated from God and without his Spirit, which would bring despair. If you look around in the world, there is definitely good and evil going on. I believe those good and evil forces are very real. And people who claim to be religious many times aren't following God at all, look at the pharisees, or the crusades, or what is going on in the muslim world right now. All of that stuff is from Satan and many times he uses religion in the name of God to instigate people to do evil.

  NowImFree
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  JamesThomas

  live eternally separated from God and without his Spirit, which would bring despair

  
  

  
  Thank you NowImFree, for your reply to my question.

  There seems to be many here who, like you, have pretty much abandon and freed themselves from belief in the mean and vengeful OT god of Jehovah, and have replaced him with what they proclaim to be the radically more loving god of Jesus. Besides the obvious name change, is your new god really and truly so different?

  It seems he has something in store for me -- who does not and will not ever worship him -- that is so repugnant that you say you do not even want to know what it exactly entails. Yet, you do have some idea which is similar to what other Christians have told me, and that is I will simply be condemned to exist eternally separate from Jesus. Which will bring "despair". Sugar coated like that, it doesn't sound too bad. But what is it to live void and empty of all that is "good"? Imagine being eternally condemned, 24/7, to experiencing a total lack of painless peace, joy, friendship, warmth, comfort, satisfaction, or any sense of what we would consider good. I can only imagine that life void of all goodness and peace is a fate far worse than death. A fate your "loving" god will make last forever.

  Personally, I can not find it in my heart to sincerely and honestly accept and worship a god who will eternally torture me if I do not love and accept him. My heart will simply not allow me to partner with something so violently insane. I could never look with admiration upon Jesus knowing the atrocities he was committing upon others. I could never worship a god with morals lower than my own. Nor do I imagine would Jesus want someone hanging around who was in some ways more loving and empathetic of others than he. Which probably means a lot of very caring and loving Christians are not going to be around either.

  Sometimes the facade or names change, but the insides and story remains the same. In the end, Jehovah and Jesus pretty much amount to the same. Personally, my sense is that our true Source and Sustenance is infinitely greater than the treacherous little deities presented within the pages of the Bible. Deities which many fine and loving people enslave themselves to while believing themselves "free".

  j
• 

  cyber-sista

  They funny thing is if i told them this levite story but changed the places and names, to say Inca, they would say how awful the Inca's gods and religion is. It's good that the Spanish Christainised them.

  Spectrum, I have thought of this often. If we changed the names and said that another religion was practicing the things that the WT encourages its followers to practice, the majority of JWs would condemn that religion in a minute. Also, if we presented the facts of the WTs ever changing "light" would they not be called a false prophet according to bible standards?

  cybs
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  NowImFree

  J,

  I detect a hint of anger in your response which I don't understand, because you asked me about my beliefs. If believing in Christ annoys you, then why ask about it? I have a right to what I believe and you have a right to yours. Every person needs to come to their own conclusions, including if they believe the the bible is the word of God, and who you believe God is or isn't. You shouldn't be angered by someone because they choose to believe in Jesus and I won't be angered by you because you don't.

  NowImFree
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  THE SHOOTIST

  NowImFree, Your comment about J's reply to you faith in Jesus and that you sense anger on his part in my opinion is being misread. Instead of projecting anger, was he projecting feelings of betrayal? Didn't you say that the God OF the Old Testament and his actions concerned you. Didn't Jesus say that if you have seen me, you have seen my father? Was J's commentS not reflecting the same concerns about the same kind of God? Does the Jesus of the Gospels compare with the sword weilding Jesus of Revelation? Another thing to consider is this. Didn't the anger of the Old Testament Jehovah require the blood sacrifice of the New Testament Jesus? What's the difference of Jehovah requiring blood sacrifices of animals and man as compared to the God's of the pagans requiring blood sacrifices of animals and man? I no longer believe in Jehovah or Jesus or the Bible because my concept of God requires higher standards than theirs. Another thing that bothers me about Jesus is that outside of christianity and some possibly tainted references of Josephus, the Biblical Jesus is more and likely fictitious. There were many saviours deified by millions prior to Jesus that met the same criterior as Jesus, meaning when you read about their lives it was like reading about the life of Jesus but with names like Attis, Krishna, and Dionysus. They all were born on December 25 of a virgin, died by crucifiction, had a resurrection, and worshipped as a saviour. Krishna and Dionysus traveled and performed miracles. Krishna, who had a star marking his birthplace and was sought by an evil ruler who killed thousand of infants in an effort to kill him, healed the sick, lepers, blind and deaf. Dionysus (Bacchus), put in a manger in swaddling clothes as an infant, was referred to as the Lamb of God, King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, bearer of sins, redeemer, Anointed One, Alpha and Omega. All the above died on March 25th, black Friday. SOUND FAMILIAR? These all predated Jesus, some by thousands of years. Some 40 historians and writers from that time period, including Philo who lived in the region around Jerusalem, recorded historical events in detail without ever mentioning Jesus. Historians can't even reconcile the time of his birth with historical events that are mentioned in the gospels. Herod died in 4 B.C. and the census Joseph and Mary supposedly went to in Bethlehem historically occurred in 6 C.E.. You make the math work. Some people on this board are just as offended by the contents of the New Testament as they are by the conduct of Jehovah in the Old Testament. Remember, the old gave birth to the new. If the old is flawed, what about the new? These comments of mine in no way are made in anger. I am so glad that you are free. If Jesus is what you need to believe in to be happy, please do so with my blessing. SHOOTIST
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  NowImFree

  Shootist and J,

  I have a question for you and I am asking it in all sincerity. I truly do believe that God somehow came in the flesh in order to save us from the harsh curse of the judgement of the law which we could never fulfill or follow. I have done research and based on it, I believe that the old fashioned Christian doctrines most line up with the new testament. But regardless of these things, I have to ask you and I am not doing this to be arrogant or anythig like that, I am truly asking. If you don't believe in God's promises of eternal life for all who believe in Jesus, what hope is there? What hope do you have for the future? Do you feel alright with just believing this is all there is and when you die, that will be the end of it and you will never see any of those that you love? I am just truly curious because without my faith and hope in the future and believing God's promises, I would be extremely depressed. I don't think I could handle life if I believed this was it because I have had a hard life in a lot of ways and it would have been unbearable if not for my hope in the future. I have children so to think that someday when I die, I would never see them again and they would never see me, and that this short life as all there is, I wouldn't even care to go on. I am being totally honest so hopefully you will be totally honest. How do you face the prospect of death for either you or the people you love? I know these are hard questions but I am curious and really wondering. I have always wondered how atheists handle death because I couldn't handle it wasn't for my faith. And if you are not an atheist, what do you think happens to people at death?

  NowImFree
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  THE SHOOTIST

  NowImFree, First of all I want you to know that I'm not an athiest. I believe their is some form of creator and what his plans are and what the answers are to life and death, are conjecture at best. I just know we were not born in sin and the Bible is fiction interwoven with some historical information. I know we weren't created 6000 years ago and a global flood didn't occur 4500 years ago. I'm not going into a detailed explanation for these statements, just do your research and use logic. I'm 55 years old. I have a great wife and 2 wonderful children. I'm happy not knowing a detailed program of what the future holds. I just try enjoying life on a daily basis. Getting joy out of what I have instead of worrying about what I can't know the answers to. I believe that love is the answer to all things. A true being of love wouldn't be the Genesis God. In my heart I know that God is bigger than all religion and that its fiction to believe that he chooses one religion over another and he's only God to less than 20% of the world's population. My family is involved in maritial arts and we do an Indonesian style. Some of the Indonesians came here to give us some specialized training. We became the best of friends. I watched one of them get on his knees and pray to his Muslim God 5 times a day. This is one of the kindest men I've ever known. When my children went to Indonesia this summer to perform, he was one of their body guards. He would have died for them without hesitation. This man, with his eyes taped shut and a black hood over his head, can ride a bicycle, drive a car, walk through an obstacle course, pick up objects off the floor, and fight with deadly skill. I can tell you things that I've seen and we can do that challenge the imagination. The point is, Do you think God loves people like my muslim friends from Indonesia any less than he does a christian? These people teach people blind from birth to have a special sight that enables them to live somewhat normal lives. They have powers of healing that you cannot imagine. I've seen things that make me believe we are far more than what most people can conceive and we have untapped capablities that are nothing short of divine. Do I believe in some form of a God of love? YES!!! Can I tell you where to find him? NO!!! Do I have an idea of what God wants? Yes!!! Just do all things in LOVE. If we love people, we don't hurt them, judge them, or try to say God is partial, loving one over the other. I think if we look inside ourselves deeply and spiritually enough, we can find God. My ideas on the future, NOTHING BUT GOOD!!! WHAT ELSE COULD LOVE BRING? There is one thing I agree with that Paul said in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and that is, IF THERE IS A PHYSICAL BODY, THERE IS ALSO A SPIRITUAL BODY. Did you ever think that maybe you can be in touch with the spiritual while being in the physical? SHOOTIST