HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX? (page 3)

THE FROG

The problem with religion is that there is NOTHING PROVISIONAL about its belief system. It is dogmatically asserted .......

Now you wouldn't be guilty of that would you Terry?

And I would like to add an explanation of why so many people believe in holy books as much as they do. It is useful to you in your life to bypass your critical thinking at times, because you simply wouldn't have the time to think critically about everything. For example, if an attorney tells me something about a legal issue that contradicts what someone else told me, I will generally accept what the attorney said without giving it too much more thought. If it was something extremely important I might get a second opinion. So in my life I recognize people as having authority or expertise on certain subjects, and this allows me to focus my thought and efforts on what I want to do with my time.
By whatever processs of indoctrination or persuasion, people are trained to accept that something someone else wrote or said has come directly from a divine source. When they buy into that, they accept those words about how they should behave or even the very purpose of their existence as gospel. Add to that the fact that the Divine Words can be interpreted in different ways, and it's a mess!

tetrapod.sapien

terry,

i think you have missed the "or".

i mean, i agree with the "WHOLE POINT" of your thread. i'm always going on about the same thing. and like i said, technically, you are correct. however,

You must first BUY IN to the basic belief that man should not trust his own thinking!

i get what you are saying. and yet you are buying into the implicit premise that we can do "better" for ourselves via ourselves. and i am saying that herein lies yet a further paradox. i do not think it is possible, even via science, logic and freethinking. we're animals. stop running from it. if you really don't want to be religious, then wallow in your filth, f*ck and be f*cked, and then die, okay? and stop pretending that you know the definition of "good" and "better".

This only appears to be a paradox because the premise (sinful man) is faulty.

and you are not doing a different version of the same thing? you know, it's possible to say that we are perfect (as i do often), and still say in the next sentence that we also need to get over this "glitch" of magical thinking and start thinking for ourselves. am i defending "magical thinking"? no, what do you take me for? you call it a "glitch", xians call it "sin". whatever. at least, a contradiction. at most, a paradox. it depends how comfortable you are shedding doctrine and going the distance. you're a big boy, which is the only reason i corner you in the first place.

have i highjacked the thread, and missed your point? no. i am STILL talking about YOUR premise, and am questioning the implicit assumption in it: this place called "better", even though you did not even mention it once. which is what makes a premise a premise.

sentient,

It's difficult to escape the desire for transcendence.

i don't have a desire for transcendence. out of terry and i, i have a lesser desire for transcendence. terry wants to make peoples lives "better" via themselves. he wants to make the world a "better" place without religion and magical thinking. i am saying, "hold on a second". why do we need a "better" world of any sort. why do we need to transcend *anything* including delusional religious thought? terry comes from the premise that there is a "better" out there somewhere, in the distant future, that we can work towards, via ourselves. my premise is not to transcend anything, including religion. my premise is to shed it all, including the thing that us atheists hold dear to ourselves: science. technically, i fall where terry does. i will defend evolution by natural selection ad infinitum, for example. but in the end, after i have tallied all the beans of technicality, i fall in the lonely camp of: "why the f*ck should we care? we're gonna die anyways."

sentient. i am a materialist and a reductionist. but i don't stop at science and logic because they are my babies (anymore). i say we're animals, so drop the premise that there is such a thing as "better" and "good" via science and logic, and just get on with being a freaking animal already. the last thing i want to be is religious. and yet i am extremely religious about being an animal, and embracing everything, including the vile and "illogical". contradiction is not an issue, and i do not need to go to school for this profession. if nature is paradoxical, then i won't fight it.

if you want to transcend being an animal, as terry does, then that's fine. but i do not have a desire for transcendence. i much prefer the terry who says it's all f*cking pointless and meaningless, because frankly that makes more sense than saying that religion isn't going to get us anywhere, but "here is another way to get to the same hope for the future" that religion offers anyways. this place called "better".

tetragod

poppers

Let your balloon burst - what JamesThomas said is the pin which will puncture that balloon.

proplog2

Terry:

I am sure you know that it is only a paradox to those who accept the premises.

There is a use for the "religious" function. Otherwise it probably wouldn't have survived.

I believe the function of religion is to give humans orientation. It is the collective mind of a culture.

The problem is that culture has its origins in the pre-scientific past.

Good religion adjusts gradually to science.

Hey! If the Catholic Church can accept evolution then there IS hope for religions to change.

If you just throw religion out there is a chance that you lose your connection to your culture.

tijkmo

ONE FURTHER PARADOX!
If women are considered the "weaker vessel" and man must be the head of the woman.....then...
how is it the vast majority of religion survives through the efforts of women? The majority of field service, child instruction and maintenance of men in Jehovah's "organization" is through the ministrations of females!
If all women went on strike in religion it would collapse overnight!!
Think about it.

hehe good one

Sentient

tetrapod,
Do what you want to do with the years of your life you have left, there's nothing you have to do or not do. I don't need someone else to give me some point or meaning, yet it's still my right to make my own point or meaning out of the life I've got. Just because you've found out you're not immortal doesn't mean you have to act like you've got a hot coal up the rear and treat everyone else like a jackass. You'll only want other people to feel like their life will always be pointless if you feel that way...the greatest meaning is the meaning that comes from you. If you feel good, you'll try to help others feel good and improve their lives...I know that's one of the things that still makes me feel fulfilled in life. I still see my life as a gift, however I got here. And I realize that many people did many things to make the world I'm in a whole lot better in many ways than the way the world was before I got here. So if I have a choice, I'm going to do what I can to make it a little better for those who will live on after me.

tetrapod.sapien

doesn't mean you have to act like you've got a hot coal up the rear

LOL, never heard that one before. listen man, whatevs, it's cool.

TS

tetrapod.sapien

If all women went on strike in religion it would collapse overnight!!
Think about it.

yes. the sisters are a large army. he he...

Terry

The problem with religion is that there is NOTHING PROVISIONAL about its belief system. It is dogmatically asserted .......
Now you wouldn't be guilty of that would you Terry?

Nice try!

In religion you have a division into two main groups: the ones with power who create and enforce dogma and the other group whose job it is to follow orders and "believe" what they are told without question.

On the Jehovah's Witness discussion forum we are all equally empowered to present our views. I can neither create nor enforce my assertions.

I know you see the difference.

HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?

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