by AlmostAtheist 37 Replies latest jw friends
Romans 8:9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God's spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ's spirit, this one does not belong to him. (NWT)
Acts 13:2 As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: "Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work which I have called them." (NWT)
Hi, I'm new on this board but I have been reading some of the posts lately and this one really interests me. Now that I've left the JWs, I can't believe I didn't notice scriptures more and really think about what they are saying. Like these:
Philippians 1: 21-24 NIV Translation
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
2 Corninthians 5: 6-9
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Now, based on my upbringing as a JW, now I'm 41 and I just disassociated 3 years ago. But anyway, as a JW, I was always taught I thought that none of the 144,000 so called heavenly class were resurrected from "non-existence" until 1914 when they teach that Jesus came back invisibly. Am I right about that? If this is what they have taught, how can they explain the above verses? These verses definitely indicate they were looking forward to immediatly being with Christ at their deaths. Why would Paul be contemplating which he would prefer if he thought he was going to be in non-existence at his death until the resurrection.? Any thoughts?
NowImFree
Well I guess I'll add a few. Prov 14:17 " The man of thinking ability will be hated". These two are for the Unnointed: Abraham and men of old in heaven. Matthew 8:11 and Heb 11:13-16. Also were not Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration next to Jesus?? Just something to think about if, THEY use their THINKING ABILITY
Thanks everybody, these are very helpful!
Welcome to the forum, NowImFree! Isn't it interesting that the word "free" winds up in so many people's user names? "The truth shall set you free", eh?
On the Phillipians quote, I'm sure the Watchtower would insert some "certainly"'s and some "obviously"'s and then feed their readers some guff about how Paul was looking forward to his *eventual* reward of being with Jesus. *sigh*
Dave
Revelation 19:1 Great Crowd in Heaven
Hi Dave,
Thank you for the welcome to the board. I'm sure you are right. They would have some bogus explanation and all the brain washed JWs will buy it. It wasn't until I finally realized that the GB are just plain old men that I could finally read things with my own mind and analyze things. But when I was brain washed, I probably would have believed what they said. But for me, things that didn't make sense would always float around in the back of my mind and would really bother me. Which is what finally lead to my research and ESCAPE.
NowImFree
True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these "last days." Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.Rather, the record that the "faithful and discreet slave" organization has made for the past more than 100 years forces us to the conclusion that Peter expressed when Jesus asked if his apostles also wanted to leave him, namely, "Whom shall we go away to?" (John 6:66-69) No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the "faithful and discreet slave" organization.
Deut 18:20-22 But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’ You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the Lord ’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Jeremiah 44:16-18 "As regards the word that you have spoken to us in the name of Jehovah, we are not listening to you, but we shall positively do every word that has gone forth from OUR mouth, in order to make sacrificial smoke to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out to her drink offerings, just as we ourselves and our forefathers, our kings, and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, when we USED to be satisfied with bread and to be well off, and we did not see ANY calamity at all. And from the time that we ceased to make sacrificial smoke to the Queen of Heaven, and pour out drink offerings to her we have lacked everything, and by the sword and by the famine we have come to our finish." So, when these people stopped worshipping the Queen of Heaven, why didn't Jehovah bless them?
Luke24 v.36-43
Here Jesus appears to his disciples, and they think he is a spirit (Just what the WT believes). So to "prove" the WT correct, Jesus tells them he is not a spirit, he tells them to touch him and then he eats with thim. All of these things he does with a fleshly body to "prove" that he was raised as a spirit.
This scripture can be further hammered home in that, at one point Jesus says "It is I", "Touch me, and see, a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"
The WT says he produced bodies just to convince his followers he was resurrected but not with his original body. And they love to "prove this by quoting "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom." Well if the WT is correct then Jesus was a liar and a deciever. After all he said it was his body, he said he was not a spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but flesh and bone may.
I have to say that the Revelation 19:1 was an eye opener to me! I've just finished my first complete reading of the new testament without bias from the WTS recently, and yet this verse still alluded me, it may have been the version I used, i'm eager to check it now. In any case I just searched the net for online bible's to see it in a few different versions. It really seems to be tying up the great crowd (multitude) from chapter 7 to them being mentioned in heaven!
For me I know Jesus mentioned he had other sheep not of this fold and that the two would become one flock, so I wonder if the 144,000 and the great crowd are these two that become one and are they the natural jews and the gentiles? Thats how I understood it when reading it. Opinions please...
Arnie
