by Shazard 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
My 2 cents. Probably not worth too much more than that.
Nobody - and I mean nobody - has ever demonstrated an ability to understand a 'secondary' fullfillment of Ezekiel, Daniel and Jeremiah out of the context of the times they lived in. Why would anyone want to waste precious time on this?
The Watchtower Society has never been right about any prophecies - so who would want to listen to that nonsense.
Jeffro makes the best sense here - all the Wt apologist have no clue.
Jeff
Nothing problematic about our interpretation of the tree dream at all for at least we have one. The dream simply expresses precisely that, that God indeed has the right to rule and does intervene in world rulership.
You are ignorant of the original text because I have you the relevant phrase rendered from the original into English but as usual your ignorance manifests itself.
Ezekiel in this instance means Judah and not the ten-tribe kingdom.
The events of 1914 as with any calender year are open to interpretation so you have yours and I have mine.
In the course of the history of both Israel and Judah there were many exiles under Assyria and Babylon but Jeremiah's prophecy concerns that specific exile to Babylon which left the Judah totally devastated for seventy years.
Why I am not surprised that your chronology harmonizes everything but I will share a little secret with you so please do not share it with anyone. So does the chronology of 'celebrated WT scholars'.
scholar JW
The funny thing is that when you let the Bible interpret itself it allows us no such conclusions. In this particular case there is absolutely no ambiguity.
In the story, the dream of the tree was Nebuchadnezzar's, for Nebuchadnezzar, as Daniel reveals in Dan.4:20-37.
Period.
Thanks for your posts Jeffro. It is good to remind people of the flaws in the WT doctrine. I have always chuckled at the October 1914 date and what the WTS attributes to it. Recorded history does not support their claims.
The WTS also writes way too much into Daniel that is not there. And where is the reason to conclude that the Pagan King Nebuchadnezzar represents God? And who is God (verse 17) when God is Nebuchadnezzar?
You made some other good points I was not aware of which I will look into further.
All this date setting seems to have come out of a sad period of Christianity. Since it has led to nothing but false teachings that require constant revisions I think the conclusion is obvious. Christ never intended nor commanded any to guess at these dates.
One only need to research false teaching in the New Testament to see the seriousness of it for a Christian.
For many years the WT used the year 1914 as the beginning of the time of the end, as I preached around doors for many years. When my wife and I were Kids we told people they would be THE GENERATION who would see the end of this system, and it was ALL based on the year 1914 as being the beginning of the end times.
We would tell Bible Studies that Satan was caste down to the Earth in that year. But now that we read the Bible through our OWN eyes and not the distorted WT eyes, we can see quite clearly that Satan was already the ruler of the Earth even in Pauls day, and that is why he said the WHOLE WORLD IS LYING IN THE POWER OF THE WICKED ONE. Satan took over rulership of this Earth when Adam sinned and gave permission to Satan take authority over this planet.
That is why other scriptures speak of the ruler of the AIR, and that Satan is the god of this system of things.
However I do not agree that Daniels prophecies were only for his time. He spoke about the Kings to come, which included Greece and Rome.
Many Christians in the 1800 knew about the 2520 years, and it was not Russell or Barbours invention. A Guy called Aquilla Brown first worked out the count of times, and that is what Dr Gratten Guiness based his work on.
The problem with the WT Society is that they claim to have the truth and nothing but the truth, but when they are proven to be wrong, they DO NOT APOLOGISE and blame it on the rank & file for misunderstanding what they meant.
Nothing problematic about our interpretation of the tree dream at all for at least we have one. The dream simply expresses precisely that, that God indeed has the right to rule and does intervene in world rulership.
The fact that you have an additional interpretation is a problem in itself, as Daniel explicitly provided the application, and left no room for an alternative explanation.
You are ignorant of the original text because I have you the relevant phrase rendered from the original into English but as usual your ignorance manifests itself.
It appears that you have omitted a verb as well as some commas, and it is unclear to which original text you refer.
Ezekiel in this instance means Judah and not the ten-tribe kingdom.
Based on what? Ezekiel specifically indicates that only at a future time would Israel and Judah be considered one nation. Ezekiel's 'removal of the turban' cannot be validly reconciled with the Society's interpretation.
The events of 1914 as with any calender year are open to interpretation so you have yours and I have mine.
My interpretation is based on what actually happened. Your interpretation is based on numerology and superstition in an attempt to give currency to an end-time prophecy in order to scare and excite people, however because of the amount of time that has since passed, this is becoming less and less effective.
In the course of the history of both Israel and Judah there were many exiles under Assyria and Babylon but Jeremiah's prophecy concerns that specific exile to Babylon which left the Judah totally devastated for seventy years.
Jeremiah does not talk about the destruction or the temple, or an exile at all, when he defines the 70 years. He says that nations would serve Babylon, and when the 70 years were fulfilled, Babylon's king would be called to account (Daniel 5:26-31), and would eventually be completely desolated.
Why I am not surprised that your chronology harmonizes everything but I will share a little secret with you so please do not share it with anyone. So does the chronology of 'celebrated WT scholars'.
Aside from the many conflicts with external sources, the Society does not harmonize everything, even with itself. The application of the 70 years in Jeremiah 25 is given two separate interpretations, referring both to Jewish exile (without reason and contradicting verses 11 and 12), as well as the 70 years for which Babylon was dominant, with reference to Tyre (contradicting the Society's primary application of the same period). The correlation between Jeremiah 25 and Daniel 5 is completely ignored. The references to relative years given by Daniel and Ezekiel are ignored. The fact that there was an additional exile after what the Society claims to be 607 is distorted without basis. The 'removal of the turban' is misapplied to Judah. Jeremiah 29:10 is mistranslated to fit doctrinal requirements. Luke 21:24 is distorted from what is stated in the original text. Daniel 4 is given a superfluous interpretation without basis, despite Daniel explicitly providing the actual explanation of the dream. That's just of the top of my head, and there are probably other things that I would add if I could be bothered.
Jeffro
We have no additional interpretation but simply the one interpretation used by Daniel.
I have given you the original Greek expression rendered in English regarding Luke 21;24 which according to its verbal form has a action beginning in the past.
Ezekiel's chapter indicates that the focus is on Judah not Israel because the ten-tribe kingdom was destroyed much earlier in 740 BCE.
Your interpretation of the events in 1914 are in accordance with your own misguided opinion and is not based upon God's Word which highlight the unseen realities that brought about earth-wide consequences.
Jeremiah certainly refers to an exile of Jews to Babylon according to 29:10 and his comments in 25:11 of Judah serving Babylon whilst the land was desolated for seventy years until their release under Cyrus in 537 which also Jehovah bringing the king of Babylon to account.
Celebrated WT scholars harmonize the seventy years of Jeremiah beautifully with the clear statements of Ezra, Daniel, Zechariah and Josephus as a period of servitude under the domination of Babylon, a exile in Babylon and a desolation of the land of Judah all running together from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. The seventy years of Tyre is simply a period where that nation also like Judah came under the yoke of Babylon.
Our understanding of the matter is proven by the fact that 1914 saw the end of the Gentile Times as attested by many other scholars and expositors. Our chronology and eschatology is alive whereas yours is a rotting carcass inhabited by demons.
scholar JW
We have no additional interpretation but simply the one interpretation used by Daniel.
Pages 94 to 97 of the Daniel's Prophecy book indicate that you are lying.
I have given you the original Greek expression rendered in English regarding Luke 21;24 which according to its verbal form has a action beginning in the past.
The consistent use of the verbs in the original text of Luke 21:20-24 indicate that you are lying.
Ezekiel's chapter indicates that the focus is on Judah not Israel because the ten-tribe kingdom was destroyed much earlier in 740 BCE.
Ezekiel's words at 21:25 indicate that you are lying. Specifically, they refer to Israel as a "deadly wounded, wicked chieftan", which is consistent with the fact that Israel as a nation had suffered a great defeat (within a year of 719BC), and that only a vestige of that nation remained, which would later be reunited with Judah as a nation as described at Ezekiel 37:15-23. Again your attempts to discredit me only serve to strengthen my argument.
Your interpretation of the events in 1914 are in accordance with your own misguided opinion and is not based upon God's Word which highlight the unseen realities that brought about earth-wide consequences.
History indicates that you are lying. Nothing significant happened in October of 1914, the time for the supposed sudden fulfilment (and actually foretold to be the beginning of Armageddon). Your interpretation does not match the events that happened half way through 1914.
Jeremiah certainly refers to an exile of Jews to Babylon according to 29:10 and his comments in 25:11 of Judah serving Babylon whilst the land was desolated for seventy years until their release under Cyrus in 537 which also Jehovah bringing the king of Babylon to account.
Jeremiah indicates that you are lying. Jeremiah only states that the Jews would return "in accord with" the end of the 70 years. In chapter 25, he unequivocally indicates that the 70 years are of nations' servitude to Babylon, after which its king would be called to account which occurred in 539. It is illogical to imply that Cyrus was judged as the king of Babylon, when Daniel explicitly indicates that the Medes and Persians were the ones specifically bringing judgement against Babylon's king.
Celebrated WT scholars harmonize the seventy years of Jeremiah beautifully with the clear statements of Ezra, Daniel, Zechariah and Josephus as a period of servitude under the domination of Babylon, a exile in Babylon and a desolation of the land of Judah all running together from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. The seventy years of Tyre is simply a period where that nation also like Judah came under the yoke of Babylon.
The Watchtower Society, the Bible, and Josephus indicate that you are lying. The Society specifically links the 70 years of Jeremiah 25:12 to the 70 years of Tyre. The wording in Zechariah is not consistent with your interpretation. Josephus indicates that temple was destroyed for a period of only 50 years, though he acknowledges that the land was devastated for a longer period, which does not require depopulation for the entire 70 years.
Our understanding of the matter is proven by the fact that 1914 saw the end of the Gentile Times as attested by many other scholars and expositors. Our chronology and eschatology is alive whereas yours is a rotting carcass inhabited by demons.
The 'living' chronology that you think you have is simply an illusion built on lies, errors, and superstitions. Your superstitious reference to demons being responsible for my interpretation is humorous, though may suggest that you should seek professional help if you believe it to be literally true.
I grow bored of you 'scholar', and may not reply for a bit. But do not for one second think that you have achieved some kind of victory. All readers on this forum can see that you are completely wrong.
Jeffro
Pages 94-97 simply give the explanation of the Daniel's interpretation of the tree dream in accordance with Daniel 12:4.
The consistent use of the Greek words and the correct literal rendering into English for Like 21:24 shows that you have not understood the Greek and haver not done your parsing requested by me.
Again the context of that relevant chapter in Ezeliel applies to Judah with maybe representatives from Israel thrown into boot.
History shows that 1914 was the most significant date of world events and that is because of the events that happened both in the heavens and the earth. We can all be very grateful to those humble and wise Bible Students who properly discerned matters.
Jeremiah indicates that the Return would occur after or when the seventy years are fulfilled and only then. In chapter 25 he clearly states that the seventy years was of a period of exile to Babylon, servitude to Babylon and the complete desolation of the land of Judah. Also, he says that during these events that the nations as well woud be brought into servitude and that such nations would also experience similar devastation toJudah because of their being brought to account when the seventy years were fulfilled upon Judah.
Celebrated WT scholars, the Bible and Josephus indicates that Tyre's seventy years was only one of servitude to Babylon and was not identical to the seventy years of Jeremiah. Such an understanding of Jeremiah's seventy years is confirmed by Zechariah who used this period as an historic reminder of their sad experience in Babylon. Josephus clearly confirms our interpretation of this matter because he states that a period of seventy years from the Fall to the Return was foretold by Jeremiah.
The contrast between your dead chronology as lifeless and our chronology as living shows the difference when the Bible is rejected for the opinions and theories of men who favour higher criticism over the plain and simple statements of God's Word.
Whether you reply now or later or whether you think you have made a victory is irrelevant to me.
scholar JW
Humble and Wise Servants who wisely interpreted 1914, ARE YOU JOKING? Those are the very men who Rutherfraud kicked out of his organisation and were then classed as EVIL SLAVE. In fact if anyone believed the stuff that was writen by those Faithful & Wise Servants today, they would be kicked out of the modern WT Society. Are you aware that there are still groups of faithful people today who still teach Russells stuff? One group are called the DAWN BIBLE STUDENTS and are based in the US somewhere, and I got in touch with them soon after I left the corrupt real EVIL SLAVE, the MODERN WT SOCIETY. I learnt a lot about Rutherfraud from the Dawn Bible Students. He was nothing but a Dictator and there were a lot of those about in those days.
When did Jesus take up his 'invisible' Kingly rulership, was it 1874 like the 'Faithful & Wise Servant' Russell claimed, or was it 1914, 1915 or later 1918?
Jesus Christs KINGSHIP started when he sent the Comforter to his disciples gathered in the Upper Room and filled them with the Holy Spirit. Jesus has been with his people ever since. But you would not know about that, as you refuse to accept Jesus Christ as your Mediator, and allow the Holy Spirit to work in your life. You are totally bamboozled by a wicked and pharisaical cult.
