What exactly is not allowed (page 2)

Check_Your_Premises

Hey JD.

I would concur with serendip's advice.

I have two daughters.

One movie scene I liked was in the Godfather. In one scene, when Michael was dating his future wife in old world Sicily he would walk with her. Then in the distance, they were followed by her female family members. The idea was to give some privacy, which is necessary in courtship, but also not leave the young couple at the mercy of their carnal desires.

You can tell I have two daughters. I also tell my oldest she should let me pick her husband for her. For some reason she thinks that is dumb. I think if we compare my choice and hers 20 years after, we will both agree that mine was the better choice.

Sorry. I have daughters.

As to your question of what is or is not sin. Well I guess I would refer you to Matthew 5. The point Jesus is making there is that even if you have a list of what is and isn't allowed, you can still sin. The point is that sin is not the physical violation of a rule, it is a matter of falling short in your heart. Loving and desiring the wrong things. That is simply our nature. If we only needed to follow rules, we would only need a teacher. But our sin is in our nature. We need more then a teacher. We need a saviour.

That is also why salvation can never come from following a list of rules. Salvation can only come through faith in Christ. If you could earn your salvation by following rules, Christ wouldn't have needed to be sacrificed. That is from Galatians. I can't remember which verses.

God's law is written in your heart. Pray and ask Him if you are sinning. He is the one you need to be concerned about. Not some group of men.

CYP

ozziepost

CYP:

Yep, I can tell you have daughters. How? It takes one to know one! A special experience I reckon to have daughters.

under74

So....are you guys (serindipity, CYR, Ozzie) talking about sex on a general stand point or the double standard held for females?
Sorry, but I'm not just sick of the BS I was brought up with in the JWs, I'm sick of seeing girls in general US society told they don't have the sexual impulses males do or if they do they should reject them or unlike their brothers shouldn't act on them...and if they do act on them they're whores. I have a 7 year old niece and don't want to see her brought up with that ideal of ---it's okay and even healthy for her brothers to lose their virginity but if she does, something's wrong with her OR that the only reason to act upon sexual feelings for a woman is when a potential husband is involved.

Check_Your_Premises

Oh boy.

I guess the "extra" concern I have for my daughters stems from the obvious biological consequences of premarital sex.

Plus, I know how men think. My daughter doesn't. Sex (generally) has different meaning to women and men. My daughter will likely associate it with a deep and meaningful level of commitment and intimacy. Many of her possible suitors will associate it with scoring points, and release of tension. Unfortunately, women like all people tend to think that everyone else thinks like them. I have found that many young women have experienced a great deal of heartache because they mistakenly applied and hoped that their assumptions about the sex act would be shared by their partner.

So thanks for the Archie Bunker check and all, but the girl is trying to find out if she is going to get into trouble here. Let's stay on topic. And by the way, I do plan to chain my son to the porch, since you are concerned about fairness.

under74

"I guess the "extra" concern I have for my daughters stems from the obvious biological consequences of premarital sex.

Plus, I know how men think. My daughter doesn't. Sex (generally) has different meaning to women and men. My daughter will likely associate it with a deep and meaningful level of commitment and intimacy. Many of her possible suitors will associate it with scoring points, and release of tension. Unfortunately, women like all people tend to think that everyone else thinks like them. I have found that many young women have experienced a great deal of heartache because they mistakenly applied and hoped that their assumptions about the sex act would be shared by their partner."

No, see it's just what you've stated. There seems to be this idea that females think totally different than males. If they do think sex is more than what you've stated most men think about it, my thinking is they're taught to...it doesn't have anything to do with biology. Just in the same way women are taught to believe they have a biological clock or that they have to get married in order to fulfill some part of womanhood.

BTW- I'm female and think sex is sex. Although I was brought up to believe it was a promise. I'm not easy in any way shape or form....I just think that men seem to think there a these differences for their own preservation or so they won't have to think of the women surrounding them as sexual beings or as individuals with minds of there own.

And just to let you know I've met many men who think sex is a closer and signiture towards a long term relationship.

stillajwexelder

The easier answered question would be "What exactly IS allowed?" And the answer is sex in the missionary position only when you are married - and I am serious

serendipity

Hi under74,

Believe me, I dislike double standards of all kinds.

My advice to my daughter stems from my own experience, heartache and hardship as a single mother. I also have a cousin who had an abortion 20 years ago and still feels guilty to this day. I want my daughter to stay a virgin as long as possible. I've told her that sexual desire is natural for both men and women, that sex is fun and pleasurable and.... But there are serious consequences: heartache, loss of respect and esteem (on the part of both partners), disease (STD, Herpes, HIV/AIDS), unplanned pregnancy, guilt over abortions, etc. I've told her that she needed to make sure that whoever she has sex with DESERVES her and has honorable intentions. Her dad and I have both told her that many young men will lie just to get sex. We've had discussions on the effectiveness of birth control methods and condoms. I've also touched on the topic of masturbation as an acceptable alternate but she just leaves the room when I go there. I've tried to take a very pragmatic, realistic approach to this topic, rather than a judgmental, moralistic approach. Time will tell if that was the right approach.

I have no sons, but my nephew has heard much of this from me as well.

stevenyc

Hi Jdarley, and welcome to JWD.

This may not have been explained to you by your study conductor yet, but before you can be baptised as a Jehovah's Witness, you have to pass an exam. At the end of the exam you are required to sign a contract between you and the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. Then, the rules of the Watchtower society will become stronger. If you break the rules then unless you confess and repent, one of two things will occur. You will either become a 'marked' person, meaning that they will only talk to you at the meetings, and not outside until you repent. Or, you will be 'disfellowshipped'. Which means that an elder will announce from the platform that you are no longer a Jehovah's Witness. Then, no one will acknowledge you, at all. They will cross the street when they see you. And, your boyfriend will either have to leave either them or you.

Some rules are subtle, some are not. Here are some of those rules:

If, God forbid, you should become ill and go to hospital, not only will you have to forbid doctors to give you blood, but you may also have to allow the Watchtower Society access to your medical records.

All of you current friends, outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses will be seen as 'bad association' or 'part of the world', and you will be requested not to see them any more.

If you have aspirations of collage or university, you will be advised not to follow them, but put all your efforts into preaching instead. If you choose to go to collage, you will been marked as a person lacking spirituality.

If, during a meeting, say the Watchtower meeting, you read something that you disagree with, you will not be allowed to express your opinion openly. If you disagree with a teaching of the Watchtower society, and openly express it, you can be marked as a trouble maker. Even going as far as what the Jehovah's Witnesses call an apostate, (Which is an old term, similar to heretic), and disfellowshipped.

You will not be allowed to cerebrate birthdays and holidays. These are seen be Jehovahs Witnesses as either pagan of selfish.

If you donate to charities, you would be 'reminded' that this world is about to be destroyed, and that giving you money the the watchtower society's 'world wide work' would be better. This money goes straight to Brooklyn.

You will be required to preach the message of the watchtower society to people in your neighborhood. Then record the amount of time and literature given, and submit it to the elders in your congregation. If you are not spending enough time doing this, then they will come to you and ask for an explanation.

You will not be allowed to prey to Jesus.

The only books you will be allowed to study in your bible education will be books written by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. If you study other Christian material, you will be marked. If you see that some other books make more sense than the society's book, and express it, you will be shunned.

Please do more research about the Jehovah's Witnesses. You will find that most of them are good, decent people. Ask them what would happen, after you are baptised if, for some reason, you become disfellowshipped. Ask them if you could still associate with them. If you would still have the love shown to you, as it is while you are studying. Ask them, will Jehovah still love me if I disagree with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

Take care.

steve

under74

I understand what you're say serindipity...I'll just say in short because this isn't my thread and I don't want it to get too much off topic--

I understand your statement- you bringing up your daughter has to do with your experience...and that's got everything to do with my opinion.

Pistoff

You could just accept that humans are sexual beings; that it is more a matter of choices than moral condemnation.

The non judgemental world knows this; the WT denies it. Seek counseling from a moderate religion about the matter.

If you listen to the witnesses, you will think you are sinful by nature and in need of saving. That is not how all spiritual people look at matters.

THINK. Listen to more than one source on this.

What exactly is not allowed

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