Desolation of Jerusalem

by Alwayshere 240 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    You are the one with the issues with your pitiful attempt to undermine our wondrous chronology in which you formerly cherished. There are no inconcistencies in our chronology because it is based upon sound secular and biblical evidence and its interpretation does not follow the theories of men and higher critics. Further, it works, pointing forward to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy with 1914. There is no duality involved in Jeremiah's seventy years but a single period of exile-servitude-desolation from the Fall in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE. You are biased because you are now ridiculing things that you formerly believed so your credibility is destroyed.

    Firstly, people don't cherish in something. To say that I formerly cherished the doctrine is taking things a bit far. There was a time when I accepted it, but now I know better, and that hardly destroys credibility. Your choosing to ignore the inconsistencies won't make them go away no how much you ignore them. It doesn't work at all; the events that you claim it points to did not happen, and the events that did happen in 1914 happened at the wrong time and bear no resemblance to what the pre-1914 Bible Students said would happen. You continue to allow yourself to be deceived, but beyond that you tenaciously try to convince others of your cherished deception. You never had any credibility to destroy.

    Daniel does not say that the seventy years had ended but rather like Ezra and Jeremiah, Daniel speaks of 'fulfillment'. Do you know and understand the difference between 'ending' and 'fulfillment'? You keep referring to the 'end' of the seventy years and ignore their 'fulfillment' which is quite different to an 'end' so you need to stick to the language and be accurate. Daniel wrote about the seventy year's after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE in which he discerned their soon to be completion so that demolishes irrevocably your argument that the period ended in 539 thus being fulfilled.

    At chapter 9, Daniel does not say whether they had finished or not, but he does mention the fulfilment of the 70 years, and the defining point of that fulfilment was provided by Jeremiah, an event at which Daniel claimed to be present in 539, so why should he have not been aware of the fulfilment? Your attempt to play with semantics is irrelevant. Daniel mentioned the 70 years after 539 but did not say they were ongoing. (It is indeed ironic that you claim that Daniel must have meant they were ongoing, and yet staunchly deny that the 70 years referred to Zechariah had not ended.) Daniel simply recognized that in accord with the end of the 70 years, the Jews would soon return home.

    I did not say that Egyptian history and chronology and Babylonian history and chronology wobble at the same juncture at all but these systems are wobbly throughout and thus are unreliable. The matter of translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is made an issue by apostates alone because they have to prove that the seventy years are of Babylon and not of Judah. For us it is no big deal for our seventy year teaching was long based upon modern translations which prefer the phrase 'for Babylon' so for us it is no big deal. The NWT in its brilliance has chosen the more accurate 'at Babylon' which clearly proves that the seventy years belonged to Judah as confirmed by the other Bible writers Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah. The focus of Jeremiah's ch 25 is clearly Judah and not Babylon or the nations because the initial verses for this chapter are in fact addressed to Judah. Now you claim in order to wriggle out of your illogical argument that Ezra in Chronicles has a different seventy years. How can this be when in fact Ezra refers to Jeremiah's seventy years as did Daniel. This proves that there is only one period and that same period was the one referrred to by Jeremiah, Ezra and Daniel. Josephus' words are not taken out of context for he clearly states their period of duration, their start and end point and their characteristic. all in agreement with the Bible.

    It doesn't matter whether you specifically said that "wobble at the same juncture". Your interpretation requires that they do, which highlights that your interpretation is untenable. Regarding the translation of 29:10, more correctly it is made an issue by all of the bible translators who implicitly reject the NWT's choice to mistranslate the verse. Changing a word to suit your doctrine doesn't "prove" anything. Jeremiah indicated that because Judah had not repented, they would suffer along with all of the other nations, but it is explicitly clear that Babylon's seventy years were of domination of all of the nations in the entire region, and there is no valid way to dispute that. And of course Jeremiah 29:1 complicates your interpretation as Jeremiah wrote to the exiles from Jerusalem, which by your interpretation indicates that the 70 years had not yet begun, so it would be meaningless to say the exiles would be in Jerusalem for only 70 years. Yes, Josephus correctly indicates that the temple was desolate for only 50 years, in agreement with the Bible, a fact that you continue to deny.

    Your comments about the use of the NWT are relevant but we were able to teach and preach for many decades without this fine instrument and now that we have this superb instrument it is just that much easier and persuasive in the defence of our sacred theology.

    You're still capable of misapplying Jeremiah 25 despite what is clearly stated, so it doesn't surprise me that early Witnesses could misapply the correct translation of 29:10.

    The understanding of Jeremiah 25:12 as I have written simply reflects the plain statement of Jeremiah whereas yours inserts ideas that are not part of the discourse because you ignore the meaning of 'fulfillment' which hijacks your sloppy exegesis. There is no obvious connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 for if there was then others too would have readily seized upon it. The only obvious connection is the plain fact that Babylon was addressed by both prophets and thus was the focus of the prophecy.

    Whether others have picked up on the clear connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that there is indeed a clear connection between the two. I have indicated the connections previously, and you have not been able to specifically criticize those connections, so you simply provide a blanket statement saying there is no connection.

    The very fact that there are two different points for the seventy years such as 605/609 to 539 and 605 to 537 BCE proves that even amongst our critics the interpretation of the singular texts differs markedly so that means that one or all of these views is wrong and if you are so interested in this subject then you should be concerned because your view is possible quite wrong.

    Another example of terrible logic. You suggest that because opponents have suggested a number of alternatives, that all of them must be wrong, and in a savage assault on logic, assume that therefore you must be right. As stated previously, I accept the possibility that I could be wrong in some aspects of my viewpoint, however, as also stated previously, your view is wrong regardless of whether I am right or wrong because of your internal inconsistencies.

    Our commentary on Daniel is superb because it uses the best commentaries and truly honours the God of Daniel. Jehovah and also it does subscribe to the Maccabean thesis which plagues most modern commentaries. Yes I do have accreditation in Religious Studies with a Masters Degree conferred by the University of Sydney so your derogatory comments are simply irrelevant.

    Sounds like money well spent for a painter.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    Neil Im still searching your posts and have not come across your "neo-Babylon" kings list. What year did you post that?

    Thanks in advance

    EW

    Am I being ingnored?

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    The fact that you believed in a system of doctrines after an indepth program of Bible study and then finding out that you were misled reflects poorly on your intellect and credibility. There are in fact no inconcistencies in our chronology or in our interpretation of the seventy years except of course in your agenda and imagination.

    Daniel spoke of the soon to be fulfillment of the seventy years based upon the prophecy of Jeremiah which he clearly discerned involved the end of the exile, the return home of the exiled Jews and the desolation of the land soon to finish as shown by a reading of his prayer of repentance in the entire ninth chapter. You agree that Daniel mentioned the seventy years after 539 because the period had not then ended, it had not then been fulfilled in accordance with Jeremiah's prophecy. This is not semantics but only what the texts say without your twisting and specious pleading. The seventy years from Daniel's perspective were ongoing and would continue ongoing until that fulfillment thereof which was not until 537 BCE. As you finally recognize thanks to scholar's instruction of you that according to Daniel indeed with the end of the seventy years or their fulfillment they returned home in 537 BCE right on time to the very month. Praise the Lord!

    Our interpretation of the seventy years is tenable because it is based upon all of the Scriptural testimony and validated by an independent witness, Josephus. Your interpretation is untenable because it cannot account for the 'fulfillment' of the seventy years as a definite period but a period that is fuzzy at the beginning and incomplete at the end.

    The translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is not an issue at all within scholarship excepting when apostates make it an issue in order to bolster support for their special theory. It can hardly be an issue for the Hebrew Preposition 'le' can mean for, at, in , to etc. Your theory of Babylon's seventy years of domination of the nations is illusory for there is no secular evidence for that. All that we have is in the case of Judah was dominated by Babylon for seventy years as period of exile, servitude and desolation. In fact, Judah was dominated by Babylon for a much longer period when Nebuchadnezzerr installed the last three kings of Judah as vassals to him and it was in the final year of the last king Zedekiah that the seventy years went into effect.

    Jeremiah's words at 29:1 are a confirmation of the fact that there were already exiled Jews in Babylon taken there in 617 BCE. These words of comfort to the exiles would be that their exile would end at the time of the fulfillment of the seventy years, the message of Jeremiah in this chapter do not indicate that the seventy years had already commenced but ten years later with the overthrow of Zedekiah and the remainder of the population exiled to Babylon brought about the beginning of those fateful years.

    Josephus does not describe the seventy years as fifty but seventy in the majority of those citations, the sole use of 'fifty' is no doubt a scribal error.

    You continue to misread and misapply Jeremiah's clear wording at chapters 25 and 29 ignoring how they are used by Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah and Josephus.

    The connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 exists in your imagination and that is really the best place for it as it has no place in honest and meritorious scholarship.

    I suggest that because there is considerable confusion concerning dates for the seventy years both from scholars and apostates that there is something wrong with the exegesis or the methodology. Something is wrong and must be fixed otherwise no one can know what the position really is and therefore cannot prove that our position is in error. Confusion begets ignorance and lack of wisdom.

    I am acquainted with another painter, a SDA scholar who is currently engaged in doctoral studies in Religion. So I am in good company!

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    elderwho

    Yes, you are being ignored. I am too busy banging some sense into Jeffro but it seems he is slowly coming around as he has already admitted that he may be in error.

    scholar JW

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    Elderwho, since no one has given you the Neo-Babylon kings list i will. Hope this is what you were looking for. All you have to do is count backwards. The Watchtower Library2001 CD has quotations from WTS articles and books which show the WTS itself has agreed with secular historians regarding the names and lengths of reign of the kings. The Watchtower 1965, January 1, page29 says Evil-merodac reigned 2 years and Neriglissar reigned 4 years. Nabonidus took the throne until Babylon's fall in 539. Their Insight Books show Nebuchadnezzar 43 years and Nabonidus 17 years. Add these years together and it is 66 years. If you don't want to count backwards by adding 17 years to 539 = 556 add 4 years =560 add 2 years =562 and add Nebuchadnezzar's 43 years =605. You can just add 66 to 539 =605. History says 605 was Nebuchadnezzar's first year to rule. WTS says 624 was his first year but you can not get 539 using 624. 2 Kings: 25: 8 says " it was in King Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year when Jerusalem was laid desolated. Starting with 605 as the first year down to 587 =19 years. So Jerusalem was desolated in 587 not 607 as WTS states. WTS is off 20 years. Of course they will deny this but their own publications prove them to be what they are "LIERS' Revelation 22 : 15 is what they have to look forward to.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alwayshere

    Thank you for demonstrating what a mess Neo-Babyloian chronology with its king lists finds itself. It is just as well that celebrated WT scholars have nicely provided a workable chronology that is truly functional rather than a chronology that is completely useless and confused as presented in the Jonsson hypothesis. Keep up the good work!

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    The fact that you believed in a system of doctrines after an indepth program of Bible study and then finding out that you were misled reflects poorly on your intellect and credibility. There are in fact no inconcistencies in our chronology or in our interpretation of the seventy years except of course in your agenda and imagination.

    You are right that there is some degree of indictment on me that I did not stop accepting what I was taught from a young age, because for too long I obediently did not look outside what was being spoon-fed to me, though I had always held doubts. This does not at all detract from my intellect or my credibility; it only indicates that I was too loyal despite a lack of evidence for the interpretations I was led to believe. I have previously indicated several internal inconsistencies. I will not recount them again because you ignore them, but that doesn't make them go away.

    Daniel spoke of the soon to be fulfillment of the seventy years based upon the prophecy of Jeremiah which he clearly discerned involved the end of the exile, the return home of the exiled Jews and the desolation of the land soon to finish as shown by a reading of his prayer of repentance in the entire ninth chapter. You agree that Daniel mentioned the seventy years after 539 because the period had not then ended, [lie] it had not then been fulfilled in accordance with Jeremiah's prophecy. This is not semantics but only what the texts say without your twisting and specious pleading. The seventy years from Daniel's perspective were ongoing and would continue ongoing until that fulfillment thereof which was not until 537 BCE. As you finally recognize thanks to scholar's instruction of you [lie] that according to Daniel indeed with the end of the seventy years or their fulfillment they returned home in 537 BCE right on time to the very month. Praise the Lord!

    That the end of the 70 years involved the return of the Jews is not at issue. The Jews would return "in accord with" the end of the seventy years. It is the claim that the return of the Jews indicated the end of the seventy years that is flawed. You make the claim that I have confused the terms "ending" and "fulfil[l]ment", however Jeremiah 25:12 is clear that only after the "fulfil[l]ment" of the seventy years, which inherently means they had "ended", would Babylon's king be called to account. I do not agree at all that "the period had not then ended"; I only agree that Daniel mentioned the return of the Jews in connection with the end of the 70 years, not that they marked their fulfilment, since that would be a direct contradiction of Jeremiah 25:12.

    Our interpretation of the seventy years is tenable because it is based upon all of the Scriptural testimony and validated by an independent witness, Josephus. Your interpretation is untenable because it cannot account for the 'fulfillment' of the seventy years as a definite period but a period that is fuzzy at the beginning and incomplete at the end.

    Your interpretation of the seventy years is backed up by your interpretation of Josephus, an interpretation which is forced to reduce the credibility of Josephus, and therefore renders your interpretation of Josephus as useless.

    The translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is not an issue at all within scholarship excepting when apostates make it an issue in order to bolster support for their special theory. It can hardly be an issue for the Hebrew Preposition 'le' can mean for, at, in , to etc. Your theory of Babylon's seventy years of domination of the nations is illusory for there is no secular evidence for that. All that we have is in the case of Judah was dominated by Babylon for seventy years as period of exile, servitude and desolation. In fact, Judah was dominated by Babylon for a much longer period when Nebuchadnezzerr installed the last three kings of Judah as vassals to him and it was in the final year of the last king Zedekiah that the seventy years went into effect.

    It is Jeremiah 25:11-12 that indicates the correct translation of the preposition at Jeremiah 29:10, no additionaly secular evidence is required; however all of the secular evidence does indeed make quite impossible the 607 theory.

    Jeremiah's words at 29:1 are a confirmation of the fact that there were already exiled Jews in Babylon taken there in 617 BCE. These words of comfort to the exiles would be that their exile would end at the time of the fulfillment of the seventy years, the message of Jeremiah in this chapter do not indicate that the seventy years had already commenced but ten years later with the overthrow of Zedekiah and the remainder of the population exiled to Babylon brought about the beginning of those fateful years.

    The bible does not indicate 70 years of complete exile. Many of the Jews were exiled for more than 70 years, and others were exiled for less. Jeremiah wrote about the 70 years to Babylonian exiles while he was in Jerusalem, further invalidating the claim that the 70 years referred to the exile, otherwise the Jews would count the 70 years of exile starting from what you call 617. It would be meaningless to refer to an arbitrary period of 70 years that had not yet begun because there would be no hope of a specific starting point.

    Josephus does not describe the seventy years as fifty but seventy in the majority of those citations, the sole use of 'fifty' is no doubt a scribal error.

    Because this citation is problematic to your interpretation, you infer that it must be an error. I do not need to stoop to such dishonest concessions to make everything fit. It is the only time Josephus refers to only the desolation of the temple, which was from 587 to 537, consistent with the known facts. The seventy years refer to a more general period of desolation under Babylonian domination.

    You continue to misread and misapply Jeremiah's clear wording at chapters 25 and 29 ignoring how they are used by Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah and Josephus.

    This is 'cart-before-the-horse' reasoning. You are attempting to define what Jeremiah meant by what was said by later writers, however the only honest way of approaching the issue is to interpret later writings in harmony with the original context of what Jeremiah said. When this is done, everything fits into place.

    The connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 exists in your imagination and that is really the best place for it as it has no place in honest and meritorious scholarship.

    You are telling me that you see no connection whatsover between the fact that Jeremiah said there would be 70 years for Babylon after which the king would be called to account along with judgement for Babylon, and that during the 70 years nations would serve Babylon, and Daniel said that Babylon's days had been numbered, and its king had been weighed and found deficient, and that Babylon's authority was given to the Medes and Persians. If you say you see a connection, then your statement was simply a lie, but if you say you don't see a connection, everyone will see you as a liar anyway.

    I suggest that because there is considerable confusion concerning dates for the seventy years both from scholars and apostates that there is something wrong with the exegesis or the methodology. Something is wrong and must be fixed otherwise no one can know what the position really is and therefore cannot prove that our position is in error. Confusion begets ignorance and lack of wisdom.

    If you show an average 10-year-old a multiplication like 574*4573, they may not know the answer off the top of their head, but it doesn't mean that they would accept that the answer is, say, 8. Uncertainty among scholars does not automatically mean that your interpretation is correct. Your interpretation contains errors regardless of whether other interpretations are erroneous.

    I am acquainted with another painter, a SDA scholar who is currently engaged in doctoral studies in Religion. So I am in good company!

    I was not implying that painting is not a worthwhile occupation, but simply that it has no connection to spending a great deal of money on a religious course. However, you shouldn't rightly be having "close association" with a SDA scholar. You may need to counselled by your "wondrous" elders.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Yes, you are being ignored. I am too busy banging some sense into Jeffro but it seems he is slowly coming around as he has already admitted that he may be in error.

    I have always taken the position that I may be in error about certain (but not all) aspects. Your interpretation is in error regardless of whether or not mine is, and I am not and never will 'slowly come around' to your faulty reasoning. You really do show your true mettle when you ignore posters who request what you have previously promised, that being an accurate and complete tabulation of Neo-Babylonian kings. You still owe me that too.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    Jeffro, Scholar will never give you an accurtate tabulation of the Neo- Babylonian kings. He will ignor anything that proves the Society wrong.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    he is slowly coming around as he has already admitted that he may be in error.



    Yeah I can see you got him right where he wants you, er you want him.

    scholars have nicely provided a workable chronology that is truly functional

    So post it already, geeze we are all waiting. Or just give me the post where you did write it.

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