Why Iraq Is So Desperately Important

by metatron 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon


    I can still see that most of you still don't grasp the whole picture ... but I'll try again.

    Oh thank you great one ; you could trying responding to the people who have pointed out what are technically known as 'GAPING HOLES' in your theory. Like Iraq is not a synonym of terrorism, or that comparing Imperial Japan with Jihadi's is a BAD comparison. Just repeating yourself without dealing with problems with the theory YOU advanced is silly.

    You don't seem to be absorbing the full import of the incidents I'm citing. For example:

    And you seem to love your idea so much you repeat it rather than dealing with the problems people have pointed out.

    Yes, Christendom used to teach nasty things just like Islam. As centuries passed, enlightenment took hold. This process needs to be accelerated in Islamic countries,even if by force because history ( and technology) won't wait!

    Already, many Muslims in Western nations are demanding a dual legal system , in which the western nations accept "Sharia" - and not the country's law as applied to them! Such demands have already emerged in Australia, Canada and Europe.

    Is that 'many' as used by people who have no facts to back them up? I do believe it is!

    For Pete's sakes, the spittle-lipped nutters of Islam in the West who want a chopping block outside WalMart to deal with shoplifters are as representative of Islam in the West as Fundamental Christians with a literal belief in the inerrant nature of the Bible and a six-day Creation are representative of modern Christianity. I know that last group is getting on for a third of the US population (thus the irony of how close they are to Jihadi's), but is very much a minority postion amongst 'Westerners' in general

    Now, add to the above, a spirit of appeasement in Europe - where cars burn -and 100 - 150 "no-go' zones exist in France,

    Tell you what, get a job as a newspaper columnist. The big-on-opinion short-on-facts style is something you appear to do well. You make no mention of 'no go areas' caused by disaffected adolescents or criminal subcultures who are not 'tainted' by the brush of Islam. You connect, with (sorry) a total lack of knowledge pissed off second generation immigrants who want jobs and equality of opportunity and (who although Muslim) would no more shackle themselves to Sharia than fly to the moon with Jihadi's.

    You connect two unconnected groups on the basis they are both Muslim and that young French Muslims speaking to camera in riots might have sympathy for hard-line Islamists, when the fact is they would NEVER become hard-line Islamists themselves.

    in which authorities cower, seeing police presence as a "provocation". What's next??? Do you see what could happen?

    A state within a state?

    Respond to the faults in your argument.

    Terrorism and Iraq ARE connected! What is needed most on the world scene is one, just one Arab country with prosperity and a working democracy!

    There was one, It was called Iran. Western powers didn't like the NAUGHTY democratic government setting oil prices where more than 20% of the revenue went to Iran, so they supported a coup and the reign of a despot (the Shah). Things got so bad in Iran that a theocratic revolution took place, and then another West-supported despot (Saddam) was encouraged and supported to go to war with them. Iran would probably still be democratic, secular and wealthy if the West hadn't interfered. The West caused despair and crisis and the clerics simply took advantage of it.

    Seems Western governments have a lot to answer for.

    They need one decent example of progress to pull them towards 'good old' consumerism

    Oh, I actually do agree. Watching your 68" HD TV is WAY more attractive than being a suicide bomber - but as Iraq and Iran have basically been ruined by Western interference, and we need to get economic hope in to those people's lives so they tell the millitants to piss off.

    Education will prevent terrorism? Have various terrorists in western lands had college education? Have some Palestinian

    terrorists had college education? How about technical schools in Iran? Building nukes?

    Oh, I can show you college educated Christians who are nasty religious bigots; the fact there are Muslim ones as well is no surprise, but you've already judged them on account of their religion, haven't you?

    Mass education of women forced on Islamic lands might help change things................

    Force force force... LEARN from history, forcing is what got us where we are. But on this point (force aside), actually the status of women and the threat to traditional culture educated women represent is a important factor here.

    tTerrorists don't have industrialization? Does Iran?

    Iran is not an industrialised country. Look up the word.

    Have they openly threatened Israel with being wiped off the map?

    THREAT-ENED - they can't actually do it! Do you want a list of what Israel have threatened? Or what Western governments have threatened? 'Cause they CAN do what they threaten. And the fact religious nutters are in power is entirely the fault of Western greed and political incompetence.

    If the Pakistan government fell apart, would nukes fall into the hands of terrorists?

    As it is, all you need is a new, easy way to separate molecules that are slightly heavier than other molecules,

    on a mass scale - and you can create fissionable material. That was the essense of the Manhattan project.

    And what about anthrax or other agents? Nerve gas? Need I go on?

    Look, putting lots of what you consider to be scarey words in a sentence might impress or scare you, but it does nothing to me. Assembling a decent threat assesment is a different thing. There are already enough 'missing' Russian mini-nukes allegedly hanging around to give cause for concern, but maybe it was a book keeping error as they certainly aren't in any known arsenal. Those would work and work well, but not destroy a city. A ICBM warhead would make a BIG hole, but getting hold of them is a tad difficult.

    Assembling a proper nuke is FAR more involved than you realise. BUT, whilst within the abilities of India and Pakistan, it's not anywhere within the abilities of a dispersed terrorist organsiation - this is real life, not Dr. Evil you know. And a dirty bomb would be quite bad news but mostly a propoganda coup for whoever detonated it (and those it was detonated against). Quantites of biowar or chemical munitions to make major attacks are also beyond the abilities of terrorist organsiations; even if they have the basic toxic material, weaponising it and having an effective dispersal package make an attack on anything more than a neighbourhood unlikely.

    The critical point I keep repeating is: Technology is going to make this nasty stuff easier , in the future!

    For those that have it. Terrorists don't.

    There are some positive signs: I think Palestine may quiet down - because they can't build their society and war with Israel at the same time.

    Oh please, are you going to go on about the bad MUSLIMS, and ignore the massive harm Israel and support of Israel's actions does to West-Arab relations? If an Arabic country treated Jews like Israel treats Palestine, there would be immediate response by the Americans. And Arabs, whilst stereotypically under-educated by Western standards can see favouratism and hypocracy as well as you or I. The very fact you describe Palestine as being at WAR with Israel defies belief! What an army! We have the first battalion adolsescent stone-throwing boys, backed up by Achmed with a AK-47. Occasionally they will launch a 'stealth' bomber, but this is not a F117, but a poor fool who kills himself and others. And this you call WAR? CHildren with rocks and desperate sucide bombers agsinst one of the tem-most millitary powerful countries in the world? Are you mad??? It's like saying the USA went to war with Grenada!

    Giving them Gaza is good because now they have 'something to lose' - a principle appreciated by prison officials who have to deal with hardened criminals in 'for life'

    I'll not dignify your lack of knowledge about the Palestine situation with a direct response to that.

  • sf

    Anyone seen or plans to see SYRIANA?


  • mustang
    Already, many Muslims in Western nations are demanding a dual legal system , in which the western nations accept "Sharia" - and not the country's law as applied to them! Such demands have already emerged in Australia, Canada and Europe.

    What's next??? Do you see what could happen?

    A state within a state?

    That's not what happened in Singapore: the country's main laws apply to EVERYBODY. If you are a Muslim, you may elect to utilize Sharia provisions that are applicable; if you are Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist or Taoist those functions DO NOT APPLY.

    Now, as to the part I skipped:

    Now, add to the above, a spirit of appeasement in Europe - where cars burn -and 100 - 150 "no-go' zones exist in France, in which authorities cower, seeing police presence as a "provocation".

    I don't see any of this crap in Sing; the "state-within-a state" did not occur. The level of integration is very high and poverty is very low. If Sing acted in appeasement, they also used an iron fisted glove. I have seen troops patrolling the streets, although they were on maneuvers. (And they just hung a drug trafficker from another country.)

    The creation of America and the Protestant Reformation may be part of what tamed the Catholic Church. They gave up calling for crusades. (HG Wells' Outline of History notes that the attitude became "what, another Crusade?)That kind of a "cure" is needed for Islam.

    Again, a SECULAR government model, focusing on business and the well-being of its inhabitants with a measure of fair treatment for all will go a long ways in this predicament. That is what Singapore did; AND IT WAS NO ACCIDENT. A "social engineer" planned it and did just that: ENGINEERED IT!!!!


  • metatron
  • mustang

    Tnx, met,

    But..., yikes, I read some of those newspaper posts you linked to (and am still reading). But I think I got the gist of it. So, I was already preparing this further observation, which may be appropriate:

    Consider the First Amendment, US Constitution:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .

    Establishment clause

    Free Exercise clause

    These two items seem to have a tension between while not being diametrically opposed. But for the purpose of this discussion, they mean that Islam can exist in the USA, but it won't have national laws and courts. Notice the "make no law" phrase. This needs to be loudly stated and firmly maintained: the doors are open for refugee's [for now], but your countries legal practices stay where you came from!!!

    A typical case:

    Everson v Board of Education (1947)

    Voting 5 to 4, the Court upheld a state law that reimbursed parents for the cost of busing their children to parochial schools. (It was clear from the various opinions in Everson that if the state had reimbursed the parochial schools for the cost of providing the transportation, that it would have been found to violate the Establishment Clause.)

    This is a bit different from the Singapore model. Singapore's MRHA manages to selectively apply a religious law and effectively defuses it. That's a real narrow tightrope. A wishy-washy government like one already mentioned wouldn't be able to pull it off.


  • metatron

    "a wishy-washy government like one already mentioned wouldn't be able to pull it off"

    Bless you sir! You understand perfectly!


  • metatron

    My, my my .... being a terrorist is so difficult! We tiny few extremist Muslims ( who don't in anyway represent the majority) are so unable

    to build anything, what with Iran having no factories and us all living in caves. We're just too dumb to build any really good radiological

    bombs ( even though dumps of waste are nearly unguarded in Russia) Did you hear the one about the Russkie hunters warming their

    hands by a glowing canister in the woods? Seems they all died horribly. Somebody left another waste container lying around.

    [ Smithsonian magazine - oh, and I don't believe in Soviet suitcase nukes, by the way]

    How about some ricin? Maybe we're not so retarded that we can manage to grow castor beans and process the waste.

    Remember now, we have no factories or labs - it's beyond our understanding, we'll just have to use kitchenware.


    Oh, how about LSD in a water supply? I know us terror types are dumb but maybe we could grasp the garage chemistry

    mastered by the hippies who brought the world "Orange Sunshine".

    Your Buddy,


  • Enigma One
    Enigma One

    LSD in the water supply? LOL. Do you have any idea how impossible that scenario is?

    But I guess that sums up your entire set of propositions. A bit over-the-top and alarmist. Now if you excuse me, I have Henny Penny to attend to. Thanks.

  • heathen

    I liked Enigma Ones post . Metatron --- the doing the world a favor angle just doesn't work for me .

  • Abaddon


    Unfortunately your response totally lived up to my expectations. I wished I'd added 'oh, and please show exactly how shallow your knowledge of the issue is by refering to ricin'. When I buy and organ will you be my monkey?

    You do not need to go to the depth of Russian forests to find radioactive material. Try your local hospital. There are radioactives freely available to anyone with an AK-47, a crowbar, and an X-Ray machine. Still no dirty bomb... but I don't suppose you've read how effective they are (yes, of course the millitary have tested the idea)?

    You have just swallowed the fear programming, enjoy having your strings pulled.

    We tiny few extremist Muslims ( who don't in anyway represent the majority)

    See, even you can talk sense.

    are so unable to build anything, what with Iran having no factories and us all living in caves.

    Strawman argument nicely illustarting you must now misrepresent what I say to continue in this discussion. There's a difference between being an industrialised country and having factories. If you understood this your opinions could well be different.

    [... I don't believe in Soviet suitcase nukes, by the way]

    Are you dellusional? They certainly exist - whether there actually ARE 60 missing is a different question.

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