Elders school notes, Part 6: The JW Talmud, and Trust Us!!!

by sir82 94 Replies latest members adult

  • sir82


    Synopsis: A manuscript talk. Excruciating detail on what constitutes "loose conduct", and when judicial committees should and should not be formed. See quotes section for example after example after example of what and is not loose conduct and/or uncleanness.

    Sir's analysis: I found this to be one of the most distrbing talks of all. Explicit step by step decision-tree type guidelines for who should get a committee, and who should not. Apparently, a lot of elders are using the "loose conduct" category of sin as a catch-all to D-F anyone who they dislike. On the surface, it might seem like a good idea - but the idea of building a talmud-like list of rules is most disturbing.

    Egregious quotes: Most of the talk was devted to examples, as follows:

    1) A young man, with no honorble intentions of marriage, engges in heavy petting, including fondling of the breasts, of many different women. This IS loose conduct.

    2) Another young man makes numerous phone calls to a sexually explicit 900 number. He tries to hide it, but is discovered. However, he does show remorse. This is NOT loose conduct, due to his attitude, but there still may need to be more judicial action in his case (due to "uncleanness".

    3) An engaged couple, engage in heavy petting numerous times, including the kissing of the breasts. When the sister finally confesses, they both are thoroughly ashamed. This is NOT loose conduct, but IS uncleanness.

    Not all uncleanness necessitates judicial action. Per Ephesians, 4:19, there must be "greediness" associated with the "uncleanness" to warrant judicial action.

    4) A pioneer sister is dating a brother from another congregation. On 3 separate occasions, the brother kisses the sister's breasts (he is the "aggressor" in the situation). The sister is moved to tears, nd finally confesses. The elders determined this was unclenness, but there was no greediness on her part, so she faced no judicial action.

    5) an unbaptized publisher, a minor, smokes 4 cigarettes in 1 week and confesses. This is uncleanness but not with greediness. Counsel is sufficient.

    6) A baptized minor child smokes regularly. This is uncleanness with greediness, so form committee.

    7) A publishers confesses he has viewed softcore porn a number of times, and even masturbated while viewing it. He feels bad about it and confesses. Due to his ffeeling bad, this is uncleanness, but not with greediness. Counsel is sufficient, no committee.

    8) A brother has viewed abhorrent degrading porn for many years, including bestiality and even child porn. He has concealed this for a number of years, but was finally discovered. He is now ashmed of his actions. This is uncleanness with greediness, so form a committee.

    "Loose conduct is not a catch-all, for cases where the elders feel someone should be DF'ed but can't think of a reason. Loose conduct involves specific sins plus the attitude of the person."


    Synopsis: The US branch has determined that there are 3 areas that need special attention in the US branch territory: (1) Handling matters involving pornography (2) Upholding the sanctity of marriage (3) Dress & grooming.

    There were guidelines for elders on what to ask when it comes to their attention that someone is viewing porn, and guidelines fro what to do if an elder views porn (see quotes for more detail). Also: How to handle cases where the parties are legally, but not scripturally, divorced (see quotes for more detail). Also: Not very many are following the Society's directive on dress after the summer district convention sessions are over for the day. Some have been seen wearing t-shirts, shorts, and the convention lapel badge. We should follow the counsel of the F&DS.

    Sir's analysis: More browbeating on the theme of porn. Apparently, this is a huge & growing problem, with no end in sight. And, the number of persons divorcing with no "scriptural grounds" must be soaring as well.

    Egregious quotes: "Many view porn as harmless fun, and some elders and MS have let their guard down"

    If it comes to light that an appointed servant has viewed porn just a few times, perhas inadvertantly on the internet (I'm not making this up!): no committe, just strong counsel

    If however he has deliberately viewed it on several occasions, 2 elders give counsel, THEN the whole body considers whether he still qualifies to serve based on the following:

    1) Did he voluntarily come forward?

    2) Was it 1 or 2 incidents, or a practice for months or years?

    3) What type of porn?

    4) Was it accompanied by masturbation?

    5) If married, what effect does this have on wife?

    6) Who else is aware of problem?

    7) Does he still have respect of those who know, and the elders?

    8) Does he demonstrate sincere desire to quit viewing it?

    9) Does his conscience allow him to continue to serve?

    "Certain types of pornography viewing could lead to judicial committe, if it involves uncleanness with greediness"

    Another example: A sister who is legally but not scripturally divorced wans to sign up to be a regular pioneer. In that case, consider:

    1) Which of the couple initiated the divorce

    2) Even if husband did, wht is her attitude--is she working toward a reconcliation?

    3) Would the cong. feel her marital situation reflects poorly on her?

    4) Would her appointment contribute to an unwholesome attitude toward marriage in the cong.?

    5) Can it be said that ONLY one mate is responsible for the divorce? How do the elders in her ex-husband's congregation view her?

    BIGGIE HERE: Just kind of thrown into the middle of the discussion here. Couldn't get teh exact language, as they read it fast, but also said that hte COs will give us more details on their next visit.

    "In the case where we might be asked to make public statements regarding judicial matters, perhaps from the media or by a DFed person's attorney, this is what we should say:

    "The spiritual welfare of the members of out congregation is of paramount importance. We do shepherding work in strict confidentiality. We do not comment on the shepherding done in behalf of any member of the congregation."

    (These are the main points of the quote).

    There are 2 talks left, I'll post when I can, at the bottom of this post.

  • jgnat

    Lots of mention of breasts. So I imagine the elders have to ask detailed questions about the girl's breasts in order to determine if the action is merely unclean or loose conduct. Maybe they can simply ask if she soaped them down good in the shower (unclean) or if she was wearing a bra at the time (loose conduct).

  • What-A-Coincidence

    Good grief! Is that what I have to look forward to? no, not to a jc but to the actual school. ;-)


  • PopeOfEruke

    I guess the elders need to keep a breast of the latest developments in Talmudic Pharisee Law.....


  • minimus

    Sir, thaks so much for this! EXCELLENT review!!! Obviously the elders have to truly be Pharisees and keep up with every detail of sin including the most personal of matters....And where does it say all of this in the Bible????

  • sammielee24

    I guess that's the new buzz word is it? Greediness..greediness..unclean and greedy......talk about breast obsessed!!!!...so someone might be counselled for soft porn but df'd for hardcore..hmmmmmm.....now, in the talk it was that the man viewed some softporn and he masturbated at the same time - is he counselled for the porn or the masturbation? What if the guy viewing the hardcore wasn't masturbating? He'll get df'd for the porn only....and lets not forget that if the brother is viewing porn and also masturbating but he's well liked and seems remorseful - well he might be a little unclean but not greedy..and he's well liked and still respected so lets keep him...but Brother Outthedoor isn't so popular so even though he's remorseful let's boot him up and over the hill.................all this would be funny if it wasnt' so sad!

  • fleaman uk
    fleaman uk

    A pioneer sister is dating a brother from another congregation. On 3 separate occasions, the brother kisses the sister's breasts

    Why did he give the added detail?Why did the PIONEER have to be the "goodie"on this occasion?The "aggressor"was merely a brother.Its all about position and glory isnt it!Moronic little men and theyre moronic little rules.

    You are a trooper sir82 ...lol..rather you than me !I used to hate the Ms school,that was bad enough,at least it was only for one day though.How many days do you have to listen to this crap i wonder?

  • Es

    Thats exactly what i thought jgnat alot of "breast" mentioning.... i reckon they get off at that kind of stuff.....hence all the nitty gritty questions in judicial commitees...how many times did you do it??? What position did you do it in???

    They are pathetic sex starved men...makes me sick


  • PopeOfEruke

    I wonder if it's important as to which part of the breast is kissed?

    I mean, I think the elders should divide the nipple up into different zones :

    (1) outside zone - free area, no restrictions if confession made

    (2) areola - private reproof, no committee

    (3) nipple - BAD!! VERY BAD!!! Public reproof, committee,

    (4) all of the above - You're DF'ed but only after giving full details to committee!


  • sammielee24

    I agree...I say they tell us exactly where the breast begins and ends...I think they should be clearer....are they more concerned with the nipple or hey! let's take a few scenarios here...what about little Brother Blue who is all excited and is kissing on Sisters neck and in his delirium makes it down to the SWELL of her breasts...now...is that the breast? Is that unclean..he likes it so he continues to do it so it's without a doubt greedy but is that really the breast? And lets face it...what if his date has breasts that droop somewhat...() and he doesn't realize he's that far on it or what if he's kissing the skin under the breast and the breast gets in the way ...is it his fault? Does that denote greediness? Can't be unclean .....so I guess we should add another question to that list - what size and condition were the breasts?

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