What has "Unintelligent Design" been observed to make?

by hooberus 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Millions of complex objects (cameras, adjustable wrenches, etc.) have been seen to come into existence under the direction/workmanship of intelligent designers. However, despite the often even greater complexity of biologiocal systems* we are often told that only unintelligent processes can be considered as "scientific explanations" for the origin of these structures.
    My question is: What complex objects (analogous to biological systems or mechanical systems), has "unintelligent design" been observed to produce? And are these examples (if any) in themselves sufficient to merit the rejection of the consideration of intelligent biological design as science?


    * For example the following is a brief description of what is involved in obtaining vision from one componet (photoreceptor) of even "simple" eyes (It can be verified by comparing it with a college level biology textbook). Keep in mind that photoreceptors are reqired for even the simplest eyes, and also the below treatment does not discuss the complexity of the sub-compontets named (ie: rhodopsin) etc. source (http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=51)

    Here is a brief overview of the biochemistry of vision. When light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of retinal forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein's metamorphosis alters its behavior, making it stick to another protein called transducin. Before bumping into activated rhodopsin, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with activated rhodopsin, the GDP falls off and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin. (GTP is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP.)

    GTP-transducin-activated rhodopsin now binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When attached to activated rhodopsin and its entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the ability to chemically cut a molecule called cGMP (a chemical relative of both GDP and GTP). Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the phosphodiesterase lowers its concentration, like a pulled plug lowers the water level in a bathtub.

    Another membrane protein that binds cGMP is called an ion channel. It acts as a gateway that regulates the number of sodium ions in the cell. Normally the ion channel allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the ion channel and pump keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the amount of cGMP is reduced because of cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, the ion channel closes, causing the cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions to be reduced. This causes an imbalance of charge across the cell membrane which, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain. The result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision.

    (This thread is not about speculated claims of examples of "bad design" by evolutionists (such as the "inverted retina" http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=2476), of which the origin of was not observed by them, but rather about observation.)

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Wait, I can define that! It is the answer to the question: The opposite of 'creationism', viz. naturalism.
    Rex

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    hooberus, I'm on your side. It takes incredulous faith to believe in the idea that everything came from nothing and did so in such a wonderous complex manner.

  • Enigma One
    Enigma One

    Yawn.

    TetraGod will take over from here.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    you creationists and your "origins" crap...

    hoob,

    My question is: What complex objects (analogous to biological systems or mechanical systems), has "unintelligent design" been observed to produce? And are these examples (if any) in themselves sufficient to merit the rejection of the consideration of intelligent biological design as science?

    analogous to? so not including biological systems? because ALL biological systems have come into existence on their own. why do you want to exclude biological systems if behe himself goes on ad infinitum regarding them, and you yourself list one in your example? am i sensing the start of a false dillema?

    analogous?

    ice crystals. rocks. waves. clouds. solar system. universe.

    if you do not agree that these sytems are sufficiently analogous to bio and mech systems, then you are simply not looking hard enough. take a step back, a deep breath, and look again (not that i think you will, but it was just fun to say anyways.

    i do have an example of so-called irreducible complexity of non biology from wikipedia:

    In social and economic history

    Apparent irreducible complexity is a phenomenon not confined to biology. In accounting for the reawakening of Europe in the 12th century and the rise of the towns, historian Fernand Braudel instances the demographic expansion that itself needs to be explained, the progress in agricultural techniques which began in the eleventh century with the improved design of the plough, triennial crop rotation and the open field system for stock farming, the progress made in trade, the spread of a money economy, agricultural over-production and the accumulation of surpluses... "All the explanations must in the end be combined," Braudel notes (in The Perspective of the World 1984, p. 95). "How could there have been any growth unless everything progressed at more or less the same pace? A larger population, the perfection of agricultural techniques, the revival of trade and the first wave of craft industry were all essential factors if the area known as Europe was to develop an urban network." And yet the historic renaissance of medieval Europe is a fact.

    so? should we credit god, or a single "intelligent designer" with the historic renaissance of medieval europe and the complex development of it's urban network? if your answer is yes, i have nothing further to say to you, as you are obviously already living in a fantasy world.

    for those of you interested in learning more about this so-called irreducible complexity in a neutral manner, wikipedia has a good article on it. if you want more critical analysis of michael behe and intelligent design, then talkorigins.org is always a good place to start. here is the wiki article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

    okay, i am off to party a bit this evening hooberus, if you get my meaning. so i may check back but don't expect me to care much about it all. plus i have heard it all before over at iidb.org anyways.

    i'll leave y'all with a little something from the wiki article about Behe:

    Behe has been accused of using an argument by lack of imagination, or constructing a "God of the gaps." Behe himself acknowledges that simply because scientists cannot currently see how an "irreducibly complex" organism could evolve, it does not prove that there is no possible way for it to have occurred.

    TS

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    My question is: What complex objects (analogous to biological systems or mechanical systems), has "unintelligent design" been observed to produce?

    Stars. Galaxies. Tropical storms. Planets (Jupiter is pretty cool looking, with the big red spot and all)

    Or am I not understanding the question?

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    beautiful rock formations?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Is a tree intelligent? Trees produce seeds which produce trees. Does that count?

    Here is another one. In africa somewhere, i read that there was a natural nuclear reactor formation in the ground.

    S

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    hooberus....I notice you underlined the word "observed," implying that obervation is a critical feature of your question. Now why is time rarely considered as a relevant factor in comparing design by human intelligence to natural selection/natural processes? Because how long have humans been around to observe things? Or better put....how long has science been around to systematically examine natural change? Several hundred years? Now consider how long scientists agree it takes for speciation or more extensive changes to occur....have humans been around observing biological change for a few million years? Or consider how long it takes a human to make a watch, a car, a television set, an atomic bomb. A year, a decade, a century to get the design worked out....faster than an eyeblink in geological/biological time. For nature to take hundreds of million years to get a fairly sophisticated mammalian eye, well it would have to be an unintelligent designer to take soooo long to get the design worked out....indeed, by trial and error (i.e. the blind watchmaker). If it would take a single person several million years to invent a design, then your analogy would be valid...but such is not the case.

    Moreover, it is possible for people today to observe hundreds of millions years of gradual changes in design by examining the material remains of earlier designs....so in a real sense the trial-and-error process of "unintelligent design" can be observed.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Good point, leo. As well, since he likely has an intelligent creator god in mind, we ask if he has been observed creating anything.

    S

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