Michael Brown verdict discussion policy

by Simon 254 Replies latest forum announcements

  • Simon
    Simon

    It's likely that the grand jury verdict on the Michael Brown incident will be released in the coming days or weeks.

    I've no doubt many people are going to feel strongly about things whatever the verdict is.

    Whatever the outcome though, here's what's not going to happen:

    • We're not going to put up with inflamatory language and comments designed to rile others up. Be respectful.
    • We will not allow accusations of racism simply because some have a view of the verdict that contradicts others.
    • There will not be invented evidence or claims being repeated - if it's been falsely reported or debunked then it's off limits.
    • We will not accept normal and regular actions as being proof of guilt or starting the incident. Who first saw who is irrelevant.
    • It's not going to be an opportunity for people to air past gripes over past discussions.

    If you feel that you cannot discuss the subject in a rational way then it may be better to simply avoid any topics on the matter.

    Please try to be objective and respectful if you do decide to comment and not keen to take offense. Many people have different experiences and it's possible that we can have wildly different opinions on the world because of that and both be right.

    Thank you.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    I was very surprised at the OJ Simpson verdict. Although I believed that the Defense succeded in rasing reasonable doubt (in my mind) nevertheless I concluded that the jury would find OJ guilty. In OJ's case, the cop was prejuduce, he lied, the evidence was sloppy. That convinced me among other things not that OJ didn't kill his wife but that the Defense won.

    In the MB case, cops are trained to follow steps. THey do not think each case individually in my opinion. THey follow protocol. There is a video of the young man that purports to show him comitting a violent crime prior to his murder. The young man was black, he allegedly used drugs and the officer acted in the line of duty. The DA believes the police, case closed. If not for the news and political pressure, case closed. But the news. if you have been reading it daily, exposes the Police, the DA,.., and challenges their credibility and integrity of office holders.

    If not for the publicy and pressure, the cop would never in a trillion years be indicted for killing someone "in the line of duty". IT would be landmark if the cop is indicted and it will impact police protocol nationwide.

    I believe that the jury will see it this way. THe cop had reason to fear, the young man at the very least resisted if not assailed, by staute because of the size of the young man and the alleged struggle gave the cop the right to use deadly force. When the cop decides to use deadly force, he is not required to stop using it. Once he decides to use it, all of the events derrived or resulting from the proximate cause(reason why cop decided to use deadly force to begin with) do not void the justification of using deadly force. THe key in the jury decision (in my opinion) is whether the cop at the very begining had reason to kill him.

    ON the other hand, the jury can believe that the cop acted out of anger and hate and not fear and duty.

    I do not know all of the facts and it is not just for me to form an opinion, however, I feel outraged. I think that the situation could have been handled differently and the boy did not have to be killed. But the way it was handled results from police trainning (assuming the cop did no act act out of anger).

    THere is a theory that fear of punishment deters crimninal conduct. What is good for the goose is good for those holding office. " People in office should not be allowed to get away with murder, or to put innocnet people in jail or have people die or tortured in custody. Once, prosecuters, judges, cops, and high rollers are held accountable for their actions facing long jail terms or death penalties for abuse of power, there will be a lot more justice for all."

  • Simon
    Simon

    Yeah. I don't believe OJ was innocent - the reason he was found not guilty was due to legal technicalities and errors by the police and prosecution rather than any lack of guilt. IMO that was a bad day for justice - rich guy with money gets off. I can't remember if the suport / opposition was divided over racial lines back then?

    The police should be held to a high standard but I don't think they should have to second guess themselves when they do their job and the notion that the situation can vary wildly between one shot being fired and the next seems too much. Yes, the "empty the clip" mentality is wrong and OTT but you can see how it happens - if you are justified to start firing then it's hard to condemn if they keep firing.

    There is a video of 6 or 7 cops confronting a homeless guy with a penknife and shooting him dead. So many things wrong - nt just that they all empty their guns - they fire something like 48 shots but only hit him 8 times from about 10ft away. Sheer ineptitude. The UK police should be hired for training - the only ones armed are markesmen and their record of incidents vs shots fired vs hits is vastly different.

    Ultimately though, if people are risking their lives when they go to work to keeo law and order I think society expects to err on the side of being supportive if anything happens but to come down hard if someone is abusing their position and responsibility.

    But this isn't intended to be "the discussion". This is to give a heads-up that some of the language we've seen in the past is not going to be tolerated when this verdict is discussed. If everyone can avoid intentionally inflamatory language, outright lies and supposition and knee-jerk reactions to what others say then there is a chance we can have a good discussion without falling out about it.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I fully support what you say Simon, and would add that your last bit i.e :

    " If everyone can avoid intentionally inflamatory language, outright lies and supposition and knee-jerk reactions to what others say then there is a chance we can have a good discussion without falling out about it. "

    This should apply to all Posts.

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze

    I can't remember if the suport / opposition was divided over racial lines back then?

    It was a textbook example of a racially divisive case.

    I have my doubts that discussion of the Michael Brown verdict, whatever it is, will play out as you are hoping, because people just can't help themselves. But I'm hoping as you are.

  • Rufus T. Firefly
    Rufus T. Firefly

    Fisherman, you wrote: "There is a video of the young man that purports to show him comitting a violent crime prior to his murder."

    Do you see anything wrong with that statement?

  • Simon
    Simon

    It was a textbook example of a racially divisive case.

    I can't remember - we were in the UK so it wasn't reported to the same extent as in America (and reporting was more focused on the case itself).

    I do find it strange when people support someone simply because they are the same color as they are - OJ was clearly guilty and yet people wanted him to walk free.

    Do you see anything wrong with that statement?

    Yes, use of "Murder" is making a judgement. You can say that the officer shot him, killed him etc... but not that he murdered him unless the evidence convinces a jury that the killing was unlawful.

    This is an example of emotive and loaded language being used, as though a crime is established and any non-conviction is a miscarriage of justice.

    If people intentionally and repeatedly use language like that then at some point they will be excluded from the discussion.

    (I'm not saying this was the case above - just trying to make the ground rules clear and encourage people to think carefully about their choice of words)

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Simon, how about adding this to your list:

    If anybody here thinks they know more than whatever evidence is presented they should contact the attornies involved so they can testify in open court and submit themselves to cross examination.

    The truth is to the best of my knowledge no one on this board was there and has some superior knowledge of what happened, recognize that what your saying is opinion not fact - no matter what side your on.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    We have to be careful not to overreact to words. The killing of Michael Brown was homicide though it remains to be seen if it was justifiable.

    "Most states allow justifiable homicide to defend oneself or another from credible threat of serious crimes such as rape, armed robbery and murder."

    The whole crux of the Michael Brown case is whether it was in fact a justifiable homicide or not.

  • Simon
    Simon

    If anybody here thinks they know more than whatever evidence is presented they should contact the attornies involved so they can testify in open court and submit themselves to cross examination.

    The truth is to the best of my knowledge no one on this board was there and has some superior knowledge of what happened, recognize that what your saying is opinion not fact - no matter what side your on.

    I agree. If something is an established fact (released by the courts) or is otherwise undisputed then it's acceptable. If it's not then it isn't.

    If we get constant repetition of invented and debunked nonsense then it will be removed.

    The whole crux of the Michael Brown case is whether it was in fact a justifiable homicide or not.

    Yes, there seems to be a desire to point to the dead body as evidence of a murder when in fact it's just evidence that someone has been killed.

    Same goes for the stats - they don't prove 'guilt' or motive, they are just a count.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit