To: Ex-JW Women - Your Side

by Amazing 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Ex-JW Women: I, and I assume other ex-JW men, would enjoy hearing your views, opinions, feelings, analysis, and conclusions about your JW experience. How did you feel about your husband, fathers, brothers, Elders, MS's, and other women in the organizations? Did you generally feel oppression, and why? How serious was it, and was not all that bad, or even good? - if possible. [:}] Spare no feelings, and please be open and candid as you wish.

    My motive in asking? Primarily to understand your views, feelings, and experiences. I might comment with additional questions, or explainations (not intended as justifications) that may help you understand why or how we men may have acted in certain ways. Thanks in advance. I look forward to your response. - Amazing

  • Xena
    Xena

    Interesting topic Amazing, I am suprised you haven't gotten any other responses yet!

    hhhmmm I didn't have any brothers and my dad didn't become a JW till I was married and out of the house. I married a "liberal" JW man who encouraged me to take an active part in the decision making...well for the most part...after all he was still raised a JW and encouraged by his parents to keep me in my place. I do feel that he lost some respect from the congergation and his family because he did allow me some leeway and respected me as a person. lol I do believe his father felt (and still feels) that I needed a few lessons in humility and wifely obedience.

    As for my place in the Org. I always resented the fact that I was considered a second class citizen. I was never in your face with it, but it simmered inside...to not be allowed to even object to the smallest detail because you were a woman...to not be allowed any responsiblity because you were a woman...to have your thoughts and actions devaluded and demeaned because you were a woman...to be constantly reminded that you weren't as valuable a human being just because you were a women. They try and make women feel better by stressing what a great job they do with the preaching work and then slap them in the face by not even allowing them to make their own arrangements when they were the only ones showing up. At our hall the DO told the MS's and Elders that a conductor had to be assigned by a brother for field service because it wasn't right for a sister to decided who should conduct when they got there and there were not brothers there!

    To see smart women trampled on and made to feel stupid by these overbearing men just kills me...and they do it...why? Because they believe it is what God wants and ultimately they will be rewarded for it. Because they have been told over and over this is the way it is supposed to be.

    I have only been out for about 2 years and honestly I still struggle with this issue...I sometimes have trouble making my own decisions and thinking for myself because I was programed not to...and honestly I can be sensitive to criticism from men at times because I perceiving it as another attempt to keep me down.

    Anyway those are just some of my own thoughts and opinions...and I am sure do not reflect everyone elses...

    I wonder do ExJw men have problems overcoming the mentality of being better than women?

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Amazing,

    Thanks for asking! OK, here goes!

    Throughout history women have for the most part been oppressed in some way (I am of course speaking about society in general and not individual men or women), sometimes women did not realize it, other times they did.

    The JW men/women social structure is very much a part of that real world, while by some standards it may give an outward appearance of not "keeping up" with so called enlightened freedoms of women in the Western world, it still reflects the undercurrents which are very much alive even in the West.

    How did I feel about the males, the Elders etc.? No different than I felt about other males; judge, policeman, senator, President, attorney, were all men just doing their job, they were there because that's what men are, that's what they do, all of those titles were soaked in a maleness, not femaleness. It had always been that way!

    My thoughts were: if a man was an oak, no way could I be an oak for I am a girl, and besides why would I want to be an oak? I wanted to be what I was trained by my culture to be from my birth; a wife and mother.

    But an even stronger feeling than my wants worked its way upon me, it was the feeling of "what is, is." An acceptance without ever really mentally taking the active step TO accept!

    There also was the strong social pressure to conform. In high school aptitude tests I scored high in those parts of the test which featured mechanical concepts and engineering, and unfortunately spelling.

    My guidance counselor advised me that had I been a young man he would have encouraged me to get further schooling in those fields but being a young woman he recommended I take secretarial courses since my spelling and English skills were good. Well, I didn't know if I should cry or what! But I accepted his advice that my talents were not suited towards a young woman's gainful employment.

    So, my personal answer to your question is that when I was young the attitudes in the KH just reflected how it was everywhere.

    Hope this helps.

    IW

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    For all of you interested in this topic (as of course I am)

    And, if you don't feel like waiting for any more responses, try this:

    1) www.silentlambs.org:
    Bill Bowen said in a recent interview that there were near 200 experiences on his site, and I believe the number grows daily. Most of them women.

    2) www.jehovahs-witness.com, the forum 'personal experiiences'. I counted over twenty experiences by women just since October of this year. Many of them are recent, which means to me their stories reflect the organization a sit is today and not 5, 10, or 15 years ago.

    My heart just melts at these brave people who post their stories on this board. Many of them say right in the post how hard it was, and how long it took them. I spend a lot of time on that forum.

    ((((((((((( personal experiences posters )))))))))))

    Toodles

    BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!

  • mommy
    mommy

    Amazing
    Are you trying to score some brownie points? I think if we could JT's wife to post then we would get an earful. I have always wanted to meet her, she sounds like a wonderful woman. As for my experience I was raised in the org and my father served as an elder twice, between disfellowshippings I had a handful of sisters and I left before my brothers were baptized.

    I like the others would be so upset when an able bodied woman was passed over because she was wearing a dress. Many times in field service this happened, and what would have taken 3 minutes turned into 15 minutes of who is riding in which car, or which street we will work next. I saw a few men who actually swelled when they were in charge, and this was hard to swallow.

    Due to my father living a double life, I always questioned authority. I never really trusted any of the males, especially if they looked too perfect to be true. So I never had a problem speaking my mind, often times I was "counseled" for my behavior but it never slowed me down. I saw many woman though bow their heads and take it, but I rarely did that.

    I never envied that only males could read the watchtower, and give Sunday talks, or be in charge of bookstudies. I personally did not like attention and would never want those types of jobs. I would love to see elders that are female though. I think a female is more fit for the role, due to her motherly nature. Most men never get the fatherly role down, even with children of their own. And there are some things that a female cannot talk to a male about, but we were forced to due to the restraints of no female elders.

    I was already out of the org when I was married, but that did not stop my mother from giving me the "a wife is subject to her husband" speach. Actually she was at my home when my hubby decided to sell my stereo for drugs, and she encouraged me to look the other way, and remember he was the head of the house. And after I told her he had cheated on me and beat me almost everyday, I was again encouraged by her to remain a wife that will overpower her husband by my actions, not words. When I called to tell her that I had left him and I was alone with a 3 month old child, and found out I was pregnant, no $ coming in and I was hungry, they had turned the power off and I was about to be homeless. She again told me to forgive my husband because I could not make it on my own. And I was married in the eyes of the God and that could not be broken.

    Overall, I think my experience of oppression by the org, and witnessing others stories of abuse, condensation, and uncalled for humility. I think it actually strengthened me. I wanted to show the world that I could do anything, no matter the odds. I have always been outspoken, that has not changed. But I will tell you that if I didn't know I was supposed to be a good girl and keep my mouth shut, I never would have fought so hard against it.

    Another thing, my brother is now dating a Jw girl, and both are active Jw's now. I can tell you that I see some things that really repulse me about their relationship. My mother encourages him to take the lead and encourages her to obey him. Now why would a 19 year old male not like that idea?
    wendy

    When I leave, you will know I have been here

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    "I have always been outspoken, that has not changed. But I will tell you that if I didn't know I was supposed to be a good girl and keep my mouth shut, I never would have fought so hard against it."

    Wendy,

    Good for You!!!! Man, I wish I could've been that way too, when I was younger! That's the bad news, the good news is, well, IW got a mouth at last! As you well know!

    Appreciated your post.

    IW

  • Joyzabel
    Joyzabel

    Thank you Amazing for asking that question. Unfortunately, the old jw attitudes are somewhat prevalent on this board that the women’s opinions tend to be overlooked.
    Growing up a jw conditioned me to the men dominated mentality. Even though we didn’t dress any different that the world, I felt at times I either was an Amish or now a Taliban woman without a face or voice in the crowd. Having been out in the work force for the last 14 years and dealing with professionals, it took me by surprised at first, that I was allowed to speak my mind and was respected for my knowledge, even looked upon as one with intelligence and solutions to problems, gender not being a factor at all.
    So, yes, it was very hard to attend meetings and activities with the jws and have to revert into the submissive role when many of time a buffoon of a male took the lead or could voice his opinion like it was law and I had to dummy up. When I was young I always wondered why God gave me a brain if I wasn’t suppose to use it and now I know, he does want every individual to live up to their own potential.
    Too bad the wtbts doesn’t recognize the wonderful assets some women (and men) posses and use them instead of just using : 1). Men 2). who’s available not who’s best to do a job. I’m sure there are plenty of men who were good speakers and organizers that were overlooked in the borg’s structure of things because they weren’t available, i.e. the use of pioneers, for assembly parts who couldn’t put a sentence structure together if they didn’t have a manuscript in front of them.
    I’m looking forward to other women’s comments about their experiences with this male mentality. No wonder God said to look out for widows and orphans, he knew how men would twist things around and they would be left behind.
    Just my 2 cents. Thanks for letting me share. J2bf

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Amazing,

    This is a great topic! A few of the women have completely spoken my heart, which I will mention later. But I guess I didn't ever feel that the WTS was that oppressive, but just my father.

    As an American soldier in Japan, when my parents divorced, it was decided that my father would have custody of me and take me back to the states. A half-Japanese child would fare much better in the US than a half-American child would fare in male-dominated Japan. At least that's the story my father tells me. But I do remember him saying that my mother had a real problem with the fact that he'd let me talk when company was around or that I would get a choice of what to drink for dinner. I wasn't a good Japanese female child if I was allowed those types of independent freedoms. But as a small child I remember him being an excellent father. He listened to me. Gave me choices. Encouraged me to speak my heart. It was when he joined the borg that things changed...and drastically. I began getting regular spankings for minor infractions. Which after just months escalated into full-fledged beatings/abuse. His need to control my thoughts and actions was obvious to me even as a small child. I didn't understand what wa happening to my daddy. I just thought I started being a really bad child. Of course, as an adult I see the ridiculousness of it. I'm still working on healing from that. But I think I'm doing okay. Anyways, here are some of the things that other women mentioned that really struck a chord in my heart.

    Xena

    I have only been out for about 2 years and honestly I still struggle with this issue...I sometimes have trouble making my own decisions and thinking for myself because I was programed not to...and honestly I can be sensitive to criticism from men at times because I perceiving it as another attempt to keep me down.
    Me too. It took a long time for me to figure out that I had control of my life. Even in recent years, when faced with a big Life decision, sometimes I still had a tendency to want Dad (or the man in my life!) to "fix it". And when they didn't I got pissed. It's really just been the last couple of years, where I've truly felt independent. I've just realized that my life is my life and I am the one to decide where it's going. Nobody else. That really is a freeing thought for me. Like I had a blank piece of paper in front of me and I could draw whatever I wanted. It was fun!

    Also, coming from a household where everything I did was questioned or criticized, I also have a tendency to be thin-skinned when a male authority questions my decisions/beliefs. Years and years of protecting my heart aren't going to go away overnight. So at least I'm aware of it and try to go easy on myself. Nowadays when someone is critical of me I take it at face value and realize I don't have to follow their advice. My life is my life. I thank them for their advice, consider it, and make my decision.

    Wendy

    Due to my father living a double life, I always questioned authority.
    I saw from an early age that my "exemplary" father didn't live by the standards he preached to me. It was okay for him to ready porno magazines when Mom wasn't there, but if he found out I was watching "Bewitched" then I was a disobedient child. Ugh. Makes my stomach churn just remembering it. As I've gotten older and spent more time with his "worldly" mother, the more I realize the appeal of the WTS to my father. She was an overbearing, abusive, bitter woman who never approved of anything anybody did - her firstborn, my father especially. I think he looked to the WTS as giving him the authority he always craved in the household.

    I never really trusted any of the males, especially if they looked too perfect to be true.
    This is a BIGGIE for me. I still struggle with trusting males in my life. I think this is also a biggie for me because my father changed so drastically when he joined the borg. I've learned the hard way that trust is earned and not to automatically serve my heart to someone on a silver platter. It is only with a few men in my life that I can truly feel safe with. And it's because they've proven themselves trustworthy. Neil and his father being two of them.

    So I never had a problem speaking my mind, often times I was "counseled" for my behavior but it never slowed me down. I saw many woman though bow their heads and take it, but I rarely did that.
    I like the fact that I am an intelligent outspoken woman. I am not a raving lunatic, although that's what I probably was as a fresh exJW. I hadn't ever been taught self-control or good social skills. Those were learned over the next several years at the expense of many of my personal relationships, but they were learned nonetheless.

    Personally, I am proud that I've escaped the WTS and still turned out to be a decent human being. With what many of us have gone through (men and women alike!) most of us should be in a mental ward somewhere with padded walls and straight jackets. It reinforces my belief in the strength of the human spirit. In all honesty, I'm proud of a lot of us here. It's obvious with such a diverse group of people that we're all at different stages of maturing, but we are maturing. Sometimes in leaps and bounds and other times in baby steps. But progression is the key. Sometimes even those stagnant points in our lives are necessary to grow in the future. I think respecting the individual's life and where they're at is so important!

    I'm sorry to have rambled so long. Maybe I'm just being a mush-pot because of the holidays!

    Andi

  • RationalWitness
    RationalWitness

    BTTT

    Amazing,

    Great idea. This is definitely not "fluff". There must be many more insights available, so ... come on, you QUIET ones--let the Society know how their policies affect 60% of JWs.

    RW

  • ItsJustMe
    ItsJustMe

    I always took the endseat at the KH. If another brother wanted to talk to my husband during the meeting they would have to lean over me to do it. I was talked to by a couple of "mature" sisters regarding this rebelliousness, would smile sweetly back at them, and continue on my merry way.

    I have a good husband...he has never once questioned my intelligence, nor my ability to reason and make decisions on my own. I wouldn't have married him otherwise. I do still agree with the notion that someone has to make the final decision if and when there are disagreements on major life changes, but not with some of the reasons that are given for the husband being that person. I have heard too many times from the platform that men think and women feel. My husband is capable of feeling and I am capable of thinking.

    My marriage has actually had a good affect on my parents marriage. My dad never helped with the cleaning or the cooking or brought my mom flowers, etc. until he saw my husband doing these things. They seem much happier now.

    I think that there are an unbalanced amount of talks given on submission, husband authority, etc. Every assembly has at least one talk on the subject, and I would guess that probably once a month there is an article and once every two months a public talk.

    I was out in service once with a different congregation. I was working the street alone and was working house-over-house with them on one side of the street. When I got to the end of that side, I crossed over to the other side. I was halfway to the door, trudging through snow up to my knees, when the brothers called me back. They said they hadn't told me to cross over, I should get back in the car and wait for them, and then they proceeded to do the door. If that had been my congregation I would have reacted, but it was a different hall and I didn't feel like making waves there. I will never forget that day, though.

    It's the little things over time that really start to irk me. There are scriptures that say women should not teach, so okay, I'll go along with that, But a woman can't hold a microphone? Or work at the back counter? We are supposed to use our talents in Jehovah's service. My talents do not lie in helping the sick and the elderly - I'm actually a very impatient person. I am excellent at organizing and delegating, but I am supposed to ignore these gifts when I am at the Kingdom Hall.

    Thank God for my husband.

    -------------------

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