Discussion, Debate, and just plain Dissing Off

by onacruse 60 Replies latest members adult

• 

  onacruse

  I've never posted a topic on this part of the board. Basically, my "new and improving" ex-JW self shrinks from "heated" debate (though I have been known to vent a little spleen now and then ).

  imo, productive conversation starts with "discussion." And then, as the subject develops and we stake out our relative positions, it may well become a clear-cut "debate," with each of us proferring evidence for our position, and taking intelligent issue with what others may consider evidence. As a last resort, in reaction to irrelevancy or unfounded denial, we may throw our hands up in the air and say "You're hiding your head in the sand, get a clue." This is a healthy sequence.

  It seems to me that many JWs, Christians and theists that are just now joining (or, have been for some time politely participating in) our discussions here are, instead, treated in the reverse order: a passing acknowledgement ("Hi, and welcome "), they post a thought or two, and right away it goes into "Do you realize how dumb you are?" Or, a categorical "All JWs/Christians/theists are stupid." Or "So you're a JW? Why the hell are you posting at this apostate site?" This is an unhealthy sequence.

  Now, let me emphasize: I'm not trying in any way, shape or form to paint with a broad brush here. For myself, I've needed, and learned, a great deal because of the straight-up honesty I've gotten here. SixofNine, hillary_step, larc, AlanF, Gamaliel, logansrun, and rem and many others have at times gotten right into my face, set me back in my chair, and yes, sometimes brought up my boil. Sooner (and sometimes, later ) we've walked away from the discussion with mutual respect. Insofar as I've shown my capacity to deal with that kind of confrontation (and thank you to all that confront me; bring it on! ), then all is well and good.

  However, not everybody initially has that capacity. In fact, I think it goes without saying that most people that gear up the courage to start posting here are in a more or less vulnerable state (just like I was, big-time, when I came here last July, alternately crying like a baby and laughing like a madman).

  Is it too much to expect that "newbies" should be treated with kid's-gloves?

  Craig (of the "this is my 2-cents for the day" class)
• 

  StinkyPantz

  Ona-

  I agree, but disagree. If someone makes a blanket statement, they should be able to back it up, newbie or not. If someone reams them for having no proof, they'll learn not to make blanket statements.
  

  That said, the reaming that I refer to should NOT include name-calling or blatant disrespect. I mean an intellectual reaming, I guess.
• 

  Oxnard Hamster

  It seems to me that many JWs, Christians and theists that are just now joining (or, have been for some time politely participating in) our discussions here are, instead, treated in the reverse order: a passing acknowledgement ("Hi, and welcome "), they post a thought or two, and right away it goes into "Do you realize how dumb you are?" Or, a categorical "All JWs/Christians/theists are stupid." Or "So you're a JW? Why the hell are you posting at this apostate site?" This is an unhealthy sequence.

  Yes, unhealthy for both newbies and veterans alike. It's one thing to disagree, and something else entirely to just outright ridicule another person for having differing viewpoints.

  Now, I don't mind if people disagree with me. But I do mind when people try to ram things down my throat when I'm not interested, and then insinuate that I'm "dumb" because I don't care for the same things they do.

  After all, isn't that why we left the JWs, because we got fed up with being force fed stuff we really don't agree with? Let's not go back to that nonsense. Let us all be free.
• 

  Oxnard Hamster

  If someone makes a blanket statement, they should be able to back it up. If someone reams them for having no proof, they'll learn not to make blanket statements.

  Oh give me a break. So someone can't simply state how he/she feels?

  So in other words, this forum should be dominated by people who feel one way? The same people who also put heavy emphasis on black and white solid evidence?

  I thought differing viewpoints were encouraged. Some of us don't need or care to have everything proven.
• 

  StinkyPantz

  So someone can't simply state how he/she feels?

  It depends. If they feel sad or happy that's fine. If they feel that Genesis is accurate, no. They need to back it up.
• 

  onacruse

  SP, I suggest that you would do well to remember your roots. Rather like Oxnard says:

  After all, isn't that why we left the JWs, because we got fed up with being force fed stuff we really don't agree with?

  NOW, I'll be damned if I let anybody, anywhere, anyhow, anyway...convince me to ever again submit myself to that kind of control or abuse.

  BUT, making blanket statements is a classic JW trait. So, what the hell would you expect from someone just now coming out of that mentality?? Good Lord. I made so many "blanket statements" when I first came here (and I make alot of them still)...If I'd been slammed to the wall in that first few weeks, I'd very probably have just flipped y'all off and said "The WTS was right; apostates are just a bunch of disgruntled unappreciative jerks."

  Craig
• 

  Oxnard Hamster

  If they feel that Genesis is accurate, no. They need to back it up.

  Why? Because you said we need to? And how am I supposed to back it up? Sit around and do extensive research and do a bunch of calculations? Maybe I just accept it as our origins, just as anyone else accepts another theory. Maybe God didn't create the earth in 7 literal days. Maybe a day is like millions of years.

  BUT, making blanket statements is a classic JW trait. So, what the hell would you expect from someone just now coming out of that mentality?? Good Lord. I made so many "blanket statements" when I first came here (and I make alot of them still)...If I'd been slammed to the wall in that first few weeks, I'd very probably have just flipped y'all off and said "The WTS was right; apostates are just a bunch of disgruntled unappreciative jerks."

  I guess I'm the minority here, and that's probably why I clash with so many people, but I spent a very small fraction of my life with the JWs. I'm 23 years old, and only spent about a year studying with them. Therefore, I don't have this built up "paranoia" of stuff that people take on faith alone. I've been to different Christian churches. I can honestly say that they are all unique. Why do you think we have so many different denominations? Because people have different tastes, interests, and values. Some denominations put importance on things another group may not feel is that important.

  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to back up and prove all my thoughts and feelings. I shouldn't have to just to appease everybody here. That also shouldn't make me a target for ridicule. I don't care about carrying on debates. If you want intellectual stimuli, then find suitable and willing sparring partners. If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you get over whatever traumatic experiences you had with the JWs. Sorry to sound cold, but it's not like every Christian out in the free world resorts to the same mind control tactics as the JWs.
• 

  Brummie

  Craig, great post! Its ironical that in just a few replies I can see discussion, debate and just plain dissing off already! Too funny!

  Thats why I like it here, the humanity is glaring, I feel at home.

  Brummie
• 

  onacruse

  That also shouldn't make me a target for ridicule.

  After all, this is a discussion board, not a condemnation board.

  Craig
• 

  Brummie

  It depends. If they feel sad or happy that's fine. If they feel that Genesis is accurate, no. They need to back it up.

  I think this is a great answer by the way! It challanges JW conventional thought, we need this when we leave the JWs as it gets our thinking heads into action...OX it doesnt mean that we have to change our mind, it just means that we have to use it...as JWs we were not allowed to, in the long run its benificial to be challanged.

  Brummie