Jgnat,
You had some points that I missed in a previous thread. Here are my answers to your charges. How can you claim to be Christian, when you consistently ignore scripture and context in your critique of others who support the word of God as being factual?
>The problem with worshipping the Bible as a god
Are you saying that respect for and obedience to scriptural commands is somehow incorrect for Christians?
>is that the defender is forever condemned to explain away its inconsistencies.
If the Bible is inconsistent, then how can you claim that it has any spiritual significance in your life? What do you use as the standard to justify ignoring some scriptures and embracing others? If you don't believe that it teaches the truth of Almighty God, then how can you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ?
The 'inconsistencies' that you claim exist are typically reconciled. Christians do not have to explain, nor account for, all alleged 'inconsistencies' to gain the upper hand in apologetics. Also, infallibility and inerrancy are two separate issues. You need to discern which is 'in play', instead of making wide general assumptions.
>This creates twisted doctrine.
'Twisted doctrine' is the result of interpreting scripture out of context. Perhaps you can explain to us the basis you use to judge another Christian's obedience to scripture and why they should not do so?
>Following the bible slavishly, ignoring the evidence in front of us, can cause much harm.
Again, if you do not hold scripture to be factual, on what basis do you claim to be Christian? What is the 'evidence in front of us' that scripture-respecting Christians ignore?
> * I've seen abusers use the bible to force their victims to "forgive" them and remain in an abusive situation.
How can a Christian accomplish this without being a cultist, like you and I came out of? Surely you are not comparing orthodox Christianity with Jw-ism, are you?
> * I've seen evangelicals bully a deathbed conversion in order to "save" the poor soul waiting to die.
Perhaps you can tell me why Romans 3.23; 6.23; 5.8; 10.9-11, John 3.3; 3.5;, 3.16, Eph. 2.8-9 do not apply to every individual alive and why a evangelical is wrong to compassionately share scripture with another soul? What part of Matthew 28.18-20 and Acts 1.8 are you too 'good' to observe and obey?
Sharing the gospel is no more than one beggar telling another one where to find a meal and a place to sleep. We are just to be obedient to our Lord and let Him be responsible for their further welfare.
To make the statement that evangelicals 'bully' others into a 'confession' is flat out ignorant. I know of no Christian pastor that is anything but compassionate with the dying and their families. Can this occur on occasion, no doubt. You seem to have an agenda that 'paints all with a wide brush'!
> * I've seen end-time believers scour the news in hopes of finding further evidence that our world is dying.
Yes, I have also and I believe they are in error. Prophecy cannot be gleaned from every day events. I will not condemn them since I myself do not know 'the day or hour.
>Yes, Christians have much to apologize for. I'm sorry.
We are told to not seek to be a teacher of scripture unless we are called to do so. Remember that there is a heavier responsibility and weightier judgment for those who teach error or 'stumble others'. If you quote scripture in context, the result will be one of two things: acceptance of Christ or offense and denial. Even 'no decision' is ultimately denial. I am sorry that some are offended.
Rex
Questions for Jgnat
by Shining One 151 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Shining One
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tetrapod.sapien
I will not condemn them since I myself do not know 'the day or hour.
well, i know the day and hour. how you may ask? i stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, of course.
Sincerely,
TS
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jgnat
Double goody, repetition for emphasis. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/97192/1681203/post.ashx#1681203
Q. I wonder why you claim to be Christian when you consistently ignore scripture and context?
A. I am a follower of Christ. Not a follower of Bible. There's a difference.
Q. Are you saying that trying to respect and obey scriptural commands is somehow incorrect for Christians?A. Trying to defend the bible as infallible as God is infallible is doomed to failure. You are forced to believe that the world is a flat disk supported on pillars, sheol below, and a dotted tent above, Heaven. This is what the Isrealite ancestors believed, and this is what the OT references to Sheol and Heaven are based on.
Q. What do you use as the standard to justify ignoring some scripture and embracing others?A. Two scriptures I use as my touchstone; Love God, love others as myself. And second, if it bears good fruit, we got it right.
If you don't believe that it teaches the truth of Almighty God, then how can you claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ?
Q. The 'inconsistencies' that you claim exist are typically reconciled.A. Yes, but at what cost? If I took all scripture literally, I should be wearing a headpiece as I speak to you. I am not. Modern apologetics "explain away" this requirement, but by doing so, they lose their integrity. If the bible is infallible, then there should not be anything to "explain away".
Q. Christians do not have to explain nor account for all alleged 'inconsistencies' to gain the upper hand in apologetics.
A. True, if they are defending their faith. If, on the other hand, they are trying to defend the bible as infallible, they must certainly explain every inconsistency. Without relying on modern work-arounds. This is because athiests also have available to them full texts of the bible and rightfully so can call us to account.
Q. 'Twisted doctrine' is the result of interpreting scripture out of context. Perhaps you can explain to us the basis you use to judge ancother Christian's obedience to scripture and why they should not do so?
A. I gave three examples. Four including the headpiece. The JW abstension from blood is another. The JW's insistence that God's heroes weren't such bad guys after all, by explaining away their indescretions. Such as David's murder of Bathsheba's first husband.
Q. Again, if you do not hold scrpture to be factual,A. Scripture is factual now? Scripture to back that up, please.
Q. ....on what basis do you claim to be Christian?
A. I .....am.....a.......follower......of......Christ. I am reasonably certain that Jesus' instruction got to us fairly intact. I am confident in following his example, and take the cross if necessary.
Q. * I've seen abusers use the bible to force their victims to "forgive" them and remain in an abusive situation. How can a Christian accomplish this without being a cultist, like you and I came out of? Surely you are not comparing orthodox Christianity with Jw-ism, are you?
A. I was never a JW. The examples of which I am speaking were in an evangelical church. I am saying that ANYBODY can use the bible as an offensive weapon, if they are diabolical enough.
Q. * I've seen evangelicals bully a deathbed conversion in order to "save" the poor soul waiting to die. Perhaps you can tell me why Romans 3.23; 6.23; 5.8; 10.9-11, John 3.3;. 3.5;, 3.16, Eph. 2.8-9 do not apply to every individual alive and why a evangelical is wrong to compassionately share scripture with another soul? What part of Matthew 28.18-20 and Acts 1.8 are you too 'good' to observe and obey?A. I saw it. It was shameful. I know in my heart of hearts it was wrong. Now, I share my faith in all kinds of situations. But I do it when the person is relaxed and in possession of all their faculties. If a person is not in a frame of mind to write a will, why would we coerce a deathbed conversion from them?
Q. We are told to not seek to be a teacher of scripture unless we are called to do so. Remember that there is a heavier responsibilty and weightier judgement for those who teach error or 'stumble others'.A. Are you suggesting I 'stumble others' with my opinion? In my opinion, your arrogant presentation of "Christianity" does more harm.
BTW, I consider my gift to be "encourager". At least one poster here has thanked me for turning her to God and away from disillusionment.
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jgnat
Oh, yes, another thought, bastardized from "Animal Farm". It seems you ascribe to, "All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others."
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tetrapod.sapien
i have some questions for you rex:
what church do you belong to?
do you think that if i died tomorrow, i would go to hell?
do you think that it is okay to lie if it means defending the glory of christ?
do you dig catholics?
how do you explain body hair?
did jesus tell you to come here to JWD and try to help?
do you pray for me?
and don't lie. jesus is watching you rex. but i am sure he wants you to answer the questions, i can feel it in my heart.
TS
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confusedjw
Hmmmm.
I believe Jgnat to be a Christian.
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ithinkisee
Good ones Tet.Pod!
I doubt he'll answer though.
-ithinkisee
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jgnat
Some more thoughts overnight for "Shining One".
Just a few notes about my background, though I am loath to give it out to evangelical Christians on first meeting. I find it distasteful when fellow Christians insist on checking the other's credentials before they settle down to a regular friendship. I was raised in the United Church. The pastor would pick a relevant scripture and talk on anything that caught his fancy. I've seen how social religion works, and I found it lacking. I became a child of Christ thanks to the energetic care of an evangelical church, and I remained for twenty years. It is there I received my bible training. I heard long sermons from my pastor, a kind and generous man, where he tried to reconcile some of the apparent inconsistencies in the bible. I have now concluded that such mental gymnastics also did no justice to the bible. I am an Orthodox Christian, and I ascribe to the Nicene Creed.
Now, about the Word of God. I don't think the Word of God = Bible. Do you? If so, do you ascribe to a quaternary God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and NIV? ..or perhaps, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and KJV? I think Jesus is the living embodiment of the Word of God, that spoke and brought all creation in to being. I think the Word of God is spoken, not written.
There are a dozen ways to attack the bible's legitimacy. If you treat the Bible as an idol, your foundation is not sure, because it is a thing that can be toppled by men.
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Narkissos
Shining One:
Thanks for reminding us the distinct smell of inquisitorial Christianity. It's an unpleasant yet helpful reminder.
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Will Power
> If you treat the Bible as an idol, your foundation is not sure, because it is a thing that can be toppled by men.
Great line Jgnat