''YOU are my witnesses,'' Trump card (and comfort blanket)

by MidwichCuckoo 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • MidwichCuckoo
    MidwichCuckoo

    THIS, I find, is always the bottom line. When all else fails in a JW discussion/debate, (recently I have had unanswered questions regarding WTBTS etc - you all know the sort of stuff) THIS is the 'Trump Card'.

    Clearly this hinges on the Scripture at Isaiah 43 v 12;-''You are my witnesses,'' is the utterance of Jehovah, ''even my servant whom I have chosen''.

    I have had a very brief look through some WTBTS literature, and I have personally got the impression that BECAUSE JW BEAR the divine name, they feel chosen directly by God Himself.

    ''However, there was one name in the Scriptures that God had applied to his servants, which name no one else had taken, which name no one else wanted to take. It was a name that uniquely fitted them, namely, Jehovah's witnesses, based on Isaiah 43:10, 12: "'You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, ''even my servant whom I have chosen.'" "'You are my witnesses,'' is the utterance of Jehovah, ''and I am God.'" (WT 1962)''

    ''4 Which people? According to Isaiah's prophecy they would have to be those people who worship the God whose name is mentioned three times in this prophecy. As his name is Jehovah, the people must be Jehovah's witnesses. They certainly exalt the worship of Jehovah "above the top of the mountains" and lift it "up above the hills." (WT 1962)''

    Too many quotes to mention - (but I have also noticed the apparant overuse of the word ''witnesses'' - or am I imagining it?) but as this is the ''argument'' I always come up against (just me?), how do I proceed?

  • moanzy
    moanzy

    What does a name have to do with anything. Show them what a false prophet is and also the false prophecies they have given.

    They can hide behind a name all they want, but it's "by their fruits you will know them"

    Moanzy

  • MidwichCuckoo
    MidwichCuckoo

    I know what you're saying Moanzy, and I agree - but I have found that this is used in a ''when everything else fails'' argument. God has CHOSEN a people in HIS name - imperfect, but HIS Organisation.

  • Ténébreux
    Ténébreux

    I always thought that was a weird thing to do - take a name directly from a Bible verse, and then point at the verse and say "Oooh, look! It's talking about us!"

  • blondie
    blondie

    Actually, since Isaiah 43 applied only to the literal Israelites, and the WTS says only the 144,000 are spiritual Israelites, then only the 144,000 could be Jehovah's witnesses. With the emergence of the great crowd/other sheep doctrine in 1935, this created a problem in the organization. For some years, they did say only the anointed were Jehovah's witnesses. With the rapid increase of the non-anointed, it was necessary to adjust that doctrine, or do they?

    *** w50 1/15 p. 27 Who Will Share in the Final Witness? ***

    Only today the anointed witnesses and their good-will companions have no jackals to carry the firebrands of truth.

    ***

    w55 5/15 p. 314 Christian Channel of Communication ***

    Only the remnant of Jehovah?s anointed witnesses and their companions have such a distinguishing mark by being persecuted the world over.?Matt. 24:9.

    But notice this circular reasoning around the fact that this should only apply to the anointed.

    ***

    w81 3/15 p. 18 Women?May They Be "Ministers"? ***

    For example, Isaiah 43:10-12 applied first to the natural Israelites whom Jehovah God delivered from Egypt and made his witnesses. Today, this scripture applies to the spiritual Israelites whom Jehovah has delivered from Satan?s organization, making them Jehovah?s Witnesses. Proof that this term cannot be limited to the anointed remnant of spiritual Israel can be seen from the fact that today there are more than two million worshipers of Jehovah who have an earthly hope and who truly are witnessing to their God, Jehovah.

    but then

    *** w67 12/1 p. 724 By Man?s Way or by God?s Way?Which? ***

    Today Jehovah God has a spiritual Israel, a Christian Israel. (Gal. 6:16) Just as the natural, fleshly Israelites were Jehovah?s witnesses, so these Christian spiritual Israelites are His witnesses.

    and

    *** w66 2/15 p. 120 Identifying the Present-Day Beneficiaries ***

    Beginning with the April 1, 1935, issue of The Watchtower the announcements thereof said: "Again The Watchtower reminds its readers that a convention of Jehovah?s witnesses and Jonadabs (what the non-anointed were called) will be held at Washington, D.C., beginning May 30 and ending June 3, 1935.

    and if Isaiah 43:10-12 applies to the great crowd, are they then part of the steward?

    *** w81 10/1 p. 22 "Who Really Is the Faithful Steward, the Discreet One?" ***

    Reason, backed up by similar Scriptural examples, makes it clear that the "steward" (oikonómos) pictures a class, a collective body, corresponding to a juristic person, a legal person like a corporation that is recognized by the law of the land. For instance, Jehovah God called the entire nation of ancient Israel "my servant whom I have chosen." (Isa. 43:10) In like manner, the "steward" pictures the "little flock" of spiritual Israelites, the full body of dedicated, baptized disciples of the "master," Jesus Christ, who have been begotten by God?s spirit to the heavenly inheritance with their "master," the glorified Jesus. This composite "steward" was alive and available for being appointed by the departing Master, and a remnant of that "steward" class is on earth today and proving faithful to the Master Jesus Christ. Since each member is faithful and discreet, the whole class is also.

    yet

    ***

    w65 6/1 p. 336 Increase Your Praise of Jehovah! ***

    More than thirty years ago they were given a name that was based on Jehovah?s Word, namely, Jehovah?s witnesses. (Isa. 43:10) These are, not Jews according to the flesh, but, rather, spiritual Judeans (meaning, ?praisers of Jehovah?), spiritual Israelites composed of many nationalities who have been brought out of captivity to Babylon the Great.?Rom. 2:28, 29; 9:6; Eph. 2:11-18; Heb. 8:7-13.

    These people, Jehovah?s witnesses and their companions, are the only ones in the earth who are praising and blessing the most important, the most wonderful and the most holy name in all the universe, the name of Jehovah!

    Natrual Israelites = Jehovah's witnesses (Isaiah 43:10-12)

    Natural Israelites = Spiritual Israelites (Galatians 6:16)

    Jehovah's witnesses = (only) spiritual Israelites (144,000)

    Hmmm

    Blondie

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    I recently changed my name to the Rev. Otis Elevator. Yet, I am niether reverand, or an elevator.

    steve

  • MidwichCuckoo
    MidwichCuckoo

    Thanks all - Blondie, I was never aware of the distinction, thanks.

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot
    "'You are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah, ''even my servant whom I have chosen.'" "'You are my witnesses,'' is the utterance of Jehovah, ''and I am God.'" (WT 1962)''

    This is just another example of the WTS "claims and delusions" department. They are loaded with them.

    Because someone read a bible passage and decided that it meant the group we all know....does not make it so!!! THEY decided it------nowhere is it proven that God was talking about THEM!!!! They just make it appear that way in their teachings and their literature!

    The WTS claims that they are God's organization.........where does the bible say that he HAS an earthly organization? It's their own teaching!

    They say that they are the only channel of communication between God and the earth today. Where can we find proof of that, other than what the WTS prints?

    I can list so many more, but we can all see tha the WTS has a history of claims that cannot be proven. Take yer pick!

    Annie

  • bebu
    bebu

    1) Jehovah is not the actual word given in this passage... what is there is YHWH. Jehovah thus being a fabricated name, and with consonants which were not in the Hebrew language, it's hard to see why this could be the big dogmatic issue. Especially since the real pronunciation looks a lot more likely to be Yahweh! They are witnesses of a fabricated name (by a Catholic, no less).

    2) Jesus told his disciples that they were HIS witnesses, and were to make disciples of others. Why do the JWs have nothing to say about this? The old covenant between Israel and YHWH, written on stone, was replaced with the new covenant with Jesus and his disciples, written on the heart.

    The WTS insists on using the old wineskins, which cannot hold new wine.

    bebu

  • diamondblue1974
    diamondblue1974

    In either breath they have chosen a name which conveniently relates to the scripture, this doesnt mean that God has chosen them just because the wicked organisation chooses to be known by a name fitting with the scripture... why do people believe this crap?

    Why did we believe this crap....it makes me angry but more than that its embarassing when I look back...

    DB74

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