607? 587? What does it matter

by IP_SEC 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  scholar

  Leolaia

  It was you who raised the matter of the seventy years giving it a temple hypothesis from 587 to 517 which I reject as an absurd interpretation. My interpretation is from the destruction of the temple until the exilic return.

  Again, you raise the matter of absolute dates and pivotal dates. I have explaine d my position. I reject your claim that it is absolute dates that matter most. Wt chronology is begins with an absolute date and is based on a derived pivotal date iin accordance with the criteria previously described. This is the methodology that we have chosen and if you have a different methodology then that is fine to but you end up with a useless chronology.

  It is your choice as to whether you choose the fall of Jerusalem as an absolute date or a pivotal date. I do not believe that Carl Jonsson considers it so nor do other scholars. Frankly I do not care what date you choose or event because it all comes down to methodology. The very fact for whatever reasons the fall of Jerusalem cannot be determined precisely is your problem and not mine. WT scholars on the basis of biblical, historical, secular evidence calculated the date as 607.

  I am not interested in your silly argument stated in your last paragraph. I am fully aware of 2 Chronicles 36:5-9 and we fit that event consistent with our chronology as presented in the Aid and Insight volumes.

  scholar emeritus

  BA MA Studies in Religion
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  IP_SEC

  In short, the Bible gives only a relative chronology and one needs to convert this into an absolute chronology otherwise such chronology hangs in the air without a peg as it were. The Monarchy in Israel ceased about 500 years before our Common Era so a date based on an event is required to connect the data of the kings with our modern period or calender..

  scholar,

  Thanks for the replys but ..
  You call me naive then you gloss over my question by restating my point as if it is your own.

  In short, the Bible gives only a relative chronology and one needs to convert this into an absolute chronology otherwise such chronology hangs in the air without a peg as it were.

  This is my question to you and every other witness that believes in 607 and 1914. It would apply equally to anyone trying to make a prophecy out of the 587 or 86 dates.

  Maybe my first post was too wordy and my questions were lost on you. Here they are again:

  What good is a prophecy that lives or dies; stands or falls based on archeology?

  and

  What good is the bible if you have to be a historian, archeologist, Hebrew and Greek scholar just to understand it?

  and

  Are we really to believe that this prophecy could only be understood after the relevant archeological discoveries were made?

  Thanks scholar, or anyone else who believes in a time prophecy based on a date that cannot be assertained pruly from the bible.

  In the future scholar I will try to be self deprecating enough so that you wont feel the need to call me names. :) Thanks again.

  IPSec Bachlor of BS, Masters in crappy guitar playin
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  AlanF

  I think that by now, all readers can see the sort of incredibly stupid people that the JWs produce. Not necessarily intellectually stupid, but as the Society itself has said, morally stupid. How so? In that they deliberately refuse to acknowledge facts and good arguments when such conflict with their presupposed ideas. In this case, the presupposition is that whatever the Watchtower Society publishes originates with God. Of course, this shows that morally stupid people like unscholar here really hold no positions of their own, and so will change their "positions" whenever the Watchtower tells them to. Thus, if the Society abandoned the 1914 chronology tomorrow, so would most JWs. What a waste of mind!

  AlanF
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  AlanF

  Unscholar said:

  : And it is for this very reason that I have repeatedly stated that chronology is about methodology and interpretation.

  To a certain extent, yes. However, good methodology and interpretation seeks to reconcile discrepancies -- not sweep them under the rug. It also entails accounting for all available evidence. Watchtower "methodology" -- I hate to use that word here, because it implies intelligent and systematic interpretation -- consists of finding and emphasizing bits of evidence to support a presupposed position, and ignoring all evidence that doesn't fit. That's why the Watchtower ignores scriptures like 2 Chronicles 36:20 -- they can't make it fit with their presupposed 1914 chronology. So their methodology is scholastically dishonest.

  : Secular chronologists cannot precisely date the Fall of Jerusalem because of their particular methodology.

  Right, which is using the Bible's own words in an obvious manner, and taking into accout everything that it says. Rather than sweeping evidence they can't reconcile with a presupposed position under the rug, they acknowledge ambiguities and take no dogmatic positions when the data doesn't warrant it.

  : WT scholars adopt a different methodology based upon the biblical data

  Wrong. They demonstrably ignore some of the biblical data. Why do you suppose they ignore 2 Chronicles 36:20? Why do JW defenders like you ignore the fact that the Society's own comments contradict your claims about what "the 70 years" mean in Zechariah 7? It's because you know you have no answers. And therefore, you must know that you're wrong overall. Which proves your dishonesty.

  : can date that same event in 607 in the specific regnal years of Neb and Zedekiah.

  Only by ignoring the fact that the Bible is ambiguous about whether that occurred in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year.

  : So there is only problem when scholars ignore the biblical text and slavishly follow foreign secular ecidence.

  Your claim here has been proved false.

  AlanF
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  myelaine

  2520 times from 607 does not equal 1914. 607 to 1914 is 2520 years. A year has 365 days. A time has 360 days(as declared by the WTS). That's a discrepancy of 5 days a year. Over 2520 years that's 12600 days or over 34 years.

  undercover,

  So they have to "cook" the dates a little bit, IF YOU'RE A TRUE CHRISTIAN you'll go along with it. HA!

  michelle
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  GetBusyLiving

  I think its great that the people on this site who really know what they are talking about still post responses to guys like scholor though, even though it must get repetitive for them. I read "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" and that coupled with reading the blatherings from idiot apologists like scholor and the succinct factual replies from people like AlanF and Leolia really helped me get out of the JW bullshit.
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  AlanF

  GetBusyLiving, that's the reason I continue trying to reason with them -- it illustrates the difference between them and reasonable people for folks who might be on the fence.

  AlanF
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  hillary_step

  AlanF,

  I think that by now, all readers can see the sort of incredibly stupid people that the JWs produce. Not necessarily intellectually stupid, but as the Society itself has said, morally stupid.

  And this is the most important point in this whole issue. Everybody knows that in the absence of physical evidence the dating of the first fall of Jerusalem has to be assessed on the weight of secular evidence, and indeed has been to the satisfaction of *every* expert in the field, but the WTS whose agenda is always to find any means possible to bolster their sagging doctrines.

  So what we have is a criminal in a court of law, who was found with the blood of his victim on his clothes, was seen fighting with his victim on previous occasions, was seen in the immediate vicinity of the victims last known whereabouts uttering threats, was found with the victims wallet in his pocket, had used his credit cards, admitted to his lawyer that he had indeed murdered and disposed of the victim, but no body has been found. The weight of evidence is plainly against his claim of innocence. Now in these circumstances, the WTS and Scholar as their apologist, are arguing that because the man refuses to admit to his crime, he is actually innocent. Of course, there is a 1% chance that he is indeed innocent, but the circumstances indicate beyond *reasonable* doubt that the man is indeed guilty.

  Rather than accept that their chronology is flawed, the WTS seeks to silence its opposers by punishing them for drawing attention to the disparity of fact in this issue. Individual JW's say, 'Chronology does not matter', but it *does* matter to the WTS, so much so that they shun those who question the basis for its theology.

  This rather reminds me of a the tale told by Alexander Dolgun during his stay in the infamous Gulag's of Stalins WTS. He met a man who had been imprisoned for 25/5/5. Twenty-five years hard labour, five years in exile, and five years house arrest. His crime? He had publicly uttered that the fountain pens made in the USA were better than the USSR equivalents and was turned in by a 'faithful' fellow worker for treason. He died in the camps from illness - all for a fountain pen.

  Has the WTS really moved that far from such repugnant behavior? They are as AlanF says, morally stupid, I would also add morally bankrupt.

  HS
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  Farkel

  : Re: 607? 587? What does it matter

  Let's assume 607 doesn't matter to dubbies any more. They cannot prove it, and in fact every respectible scholar has disproved it, so now dubbies say it "doesn't matter" anyway.

  Fine.

  If 607 doesn't matter, then 1914 doesn't matter, and if 1914 doesn't matter then 1919 doesn't matter. Therefore, Christ did not take any charge of any invisible rule of any kingdom in 1914 and he did not inspect all religions and choose the WT to be his faithful and discreet slave CLASS, and he did not give them ANY spiritual authority to manage his earthly belongings in 1919. This means the WTS not only has NOT been chosen by God or Jesus for any special matters, it means they have NO spiritual authority over ANYONE.

  Obviously, the date 607 ONLY matters to those who claim authority over others because of that date: the leaders of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society itself..

  607 doesn't mean shit to me or my life now. It means EVERYTHING to Watchtower leaders.

  Farkel
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  hillary_step

  Farkel,

  You 'ole dog. Where have you been?

  HS