607? 587? What does it matter (page 3)

stevenyc

IP_Sec

Good luck with that. Its been a while since I did the exams, not easy.

Steve

AlanF

fairchild, for a detailed look at how the Society changed 606 to 607 B.C., look at two topics here, with obvious titles: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

AlanF

Will Power

Does it matter? To a JW? - not a bit

Take that away from them and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

This is wishful thinking.

A JW is concerned with the TRUTH TM, which is the nickname for their group, not the dictionary definition of the word. That would cause brain confusion which is why it's their nickname in the first place. Why would someone question or investigate something that might make them want to leave their group?

Remember "Every Eye Will See" JW doublespeak sooner or later, but to remain in the group - you must PASS OVER the truth at least once a year.

will

scholar

IP-SEC

Your question is rather naive and shows that you have not read carefully enough the Society's published material on this specific matter. Pivotal Dates or Absolute Dates are made necessary because we have a modern calender which means that in order to determine any date for a past event, a date that is clearly and well established can be used as a peg or marker in order for a chronology to be made. In OT times a chronology was based on the regnal years of kings which marked events but now we are removed from those times so a more modern method allows one to reach back into history.

A Pivotal Date is establihed both by secular history and the Bible. Most chronologists choose different Dates for this purpose but we believe that 539 is superior to all other proposed dates because it is calculated on secular evidence and the event itself is confirmed from archaeology. The evrnt itself, namely the Fall of Babylon is well described in the Bible and is one of the few outstanding events in Jewish history. So, if we look at the OT history as a whole , the Fall of Babylon is the best event for a Absolute Date.

In short, the Bible gives only a relative chronology and one needs to convert this into an absolute chronology otherwise such chronology hangs in the air without a peg as it were. The Monarchy in Israel ceased about 500 years before our Common Era so a date based on an event is required to connect the data of the kings with our modern period or calender..

scholar

BA MA Studies in Religion

BluesBrother

Of course it ought to matter little to none but the most ardent student of Babylonian history, but the WTS has made this into a big issue. Virtually alone (as far as i know) they have based their all important chronology on this date which is the starting point for the shaky calculation that takes one to 1914. The real issue is not really the date but one's confidence the WTS .

When 607 - 1914 were disproven to my satisfaction then all belief in the borg as Bible interpreters evaporated . After all I had spent most of my life teaching this baloney , including performing those public talks with home made charts that perported to make it "Simple". I felt cheated and angry that I had been misled .

Of course the WT would find a way of putting it over to the blinded flock and a "revision of chronology" would not in itself pull down the 'tower of power' , but it sure would upset a few especially the older ones now hanging on in there waiting for the end

Leolaia

schooler...You have no comment on my question to you on the other thread of how 539 BC is supposed to be an absolute date? Why do you persist in calling this an absolute date when it is derived -- your own "Watchtower scholars" show how they derive it from 523 BC, an actual absolute date. By the same token, 587 BC should be considered an absolute date for the destruction of Jerusalem, for it is very simply derived from another absolute date -- 568 BC as the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzer. I also pointed out that there is no inherent conflict between your favored interpretation of the 70 years and 587 BC as the date of Jerusalem's fall. I could start with 568 BC as my absolute date, which gives me 587 BC as the date of Jerusalem's fall and 517 BC as the end of the exile. Yes, that messes up the Persian chronology as you might point out. But who cares! As you always say, the Bible trumps any secular evidence and we should stick with a full 70 years following the fall of Jerusalem irregardless of what overwhelming secular evidence there may be.

jeanniebeanz

For a Christian, dates don?t matter. The law of the Christ does.

I could not agree more. People get way too hung up on this crap, and are so busy arguing the different angles that they completely miss the message. Jesus did not give a date for the destruction of Jerusalem, only a sign to look for. We have the signs to look for now and getting hung up on dates will get us no where. When it happens, it'll happen.

Jeannie

scholar

Leolaia

I fully agree with you. There is a fundamental difference between a pivotal date and a Absolute Date. The date 539 is derived from a Absolute date which is astronomically fixed. So, 539 technically speaking can only be a pivotal date derived from a fixed or absolute date. Howecer, 539 is the best pivotal date for the purposes of chronology because it is an event which is well based on the biblical and secular history. What more momentous event could there be then the Fall of a World Power and its impact on God's people. Your proposal of 587 as an absolute date is impossible because it is not astronomically fixed so at best it could only serve as a pivotal date dependent on that later astronomically fixed date of 568 BC.

It seems that you have mastered well the discussion of Absolutes Dates in the chapter Biblical and Secular Chronology in Jonsson's GTR, 1998, pp.72-88.

Personally, I prefer classifying 539 as a Absolute Date rather than as a pivotal date because of its theological significance and its relevance to OT chronolgy. But this is my personal opinion on the matter.

Your interpretation of the seventy years is problematic and renders the fulfillment of that prohecy sterile and meaningless. The seventy year was marked by exile, servitude and desolation powerfully presented by Jeremiah and that is why that the seventy yeras could only have begun with the dramatic fall of Jerusalem and their dramatic returm from exile.

scholar emeritus

BA MA Studies in Religion

City Fan

Scholar

539 is the best pivotal date for the purposes of chronology because it is an event which is well based on the biblical and secular history

So why is this any better than the 'pivotal' date 587? That too is based on biblical and secular history. In fact it is based on far more archaeological evidence for 568 BC than there is for 523 BC.

As an example of the problems associated with BM 33066 (str Cambyses) professor F R Stephenson on page 101 of 'Historical eclipses' says 'the cuneiform record...seems to contain predicted rather than observed details'.

Vat 4956 on the other hand has a dozen or more actual observations that pinpoint 568 BC as Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. There are numerous other eclipse tablets that establish the precise reign of Nebuchadnezzar.

539BC can be found just as easily by counting forward from 568 than by counting backwards from 523. It's the same process but in reverse.

Actually there is one other way that 539 can be calculated. Do you know what it is and why the Watchtower Society doesn't use it?

CF.

Honesty

For a Christian, dates don?t matter. The law of the Christ does.

I could not agree more. People get way too hung up on this crap, and are so busy arguing the different angles that they completely miss the message. Jesus did not give a date for the destruction of Jerusalem, only a sign to look for. We have the signs to look for now and getting hung up on dates will get us no where. When it happens, it'll happen.
Jeannie

So well put, Jeannie. From my 'studies in the scriptures', faith appears to be the defining factor (damn, still talking like a dub... when will it end?).

607? 587? What does it matter

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