Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Leolaia

  Lest it be forgotten what we're talking about, here is the complete context from the Isaiah book:

  *** ip-1 chap. 19 pp. 252-254 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

  19

  Which political power will execute Jehovah’s judgment upon Tyre? Isaiah proclaims: "Look! The land of the Chaldeans. This is the people—Assyria did not prove to be the one—they founded her for the desert haunters. They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin. Howl, you ships of Tarshish, for your stronghold has been despoiled." (Isaiah 23:13, 14) The Chaldeans—not the Assyrians—will conquer Tyre. They will erect their siege towers, level the dwelling places of Tyre, and make that stronghold of the ships of Tarshish a crumbling heap of ruins.

  20

  True to the prophecy, not long after the fall of Jerusalem, Tyre rebels against Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar lays siege to the city. Believing herself impregnable, Tyre resists. In the course of the siege, the heads of Babylon’s soldiers are "made bald" from the chafing of their helmets and their shoulders are "rubbed bare" from carrying materials used in the construction of siegeworks. (Ezekiel 29:18) The siege is costly to Nebuchadnezzar. The mainland city of Tyre is destroyed, yet its spoil eludes him. The bulk of the treasures of Tyre have been transferred to a small island about half a mile [0.8 km] from the shore. Lacking a fleet of ships, the Chaldean king is unable to take the island. After 13 years, Tyre capitulates, but she will survive and see the fulfillment of further prophecies.

  "She

  Must Return to Her Hire"

  21

  Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

  22

  Isaiah continues: "At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of a prostitute: ‘Take a harp, go around the city, O forgotten prostitute. Do your best at playing on the strings; make your songs many, in order that you may be remembered.’ And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre, and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground."—Isaiah 23:15b-17.

  23

  Following the fall of Babylon in 539 B.C.E., Phoenicia becomes a satrapy of the Medo-Persian Empire. The Persian monarch, Cyrus the Great, is a tolerant ruler. Under this new rulership, Tyre will resume her former activity and try hard to regain recognition as a world commercial center—just as a prostitute who has been forgotten and has lost her clientele seeks to attract new clients by going around the city, playing her harp and singing her songs. Will Tyre succeed? Yes, Jehovah will grant her success. In time, the island-city will become so prosperous that toward the end of the sixth century B.C.E., the prophet Zechariah will say: "Tyre proceeded to build a rampart for herself, and to pile up silver like dust and gold like the mire of the streets."—Zechariah 9:3.
• 

  Narkissos

  These are Tyre's seventy years only which as a period of servitude to Babylon was fulfillled at the same time that the seventy years of Judah at Babylon. Tyre's seventy years ended when Babylon fell in 539 and in agreement with Jeremiah 25 was included as one of the nations who served Babylon.

  Unwittingly you got it, scholar.

  Resorting to Jeremiah 25:11 to explain the 70-year period as a time of submission to Babylon by a group of several nations, ending in 539 BC, makes it impossible to explain the same Jeremiah 25:11 as applying to a 70-year period ending in 537 BC. You can't have it both ways.
• 

  Jeffro

  I meant to point out that Daniel's conception of the 70 years is different from Jeremiah's

  It can be interpreted that Daniel's reference to 70 years is not the same as Babylon's 70 years, however it seems more likely that these two accounts do refer to the same period.
  
  Specifically Daniel 9:2 says that Daniel "discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."
  
  Daniel was familiar with Jeremiah's writings, and therefore would have seen the clear fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the end of the 70 years by the events of Daniel chapter 5. The parallel between Jeremiah 25:12 and the meaning of ME'NE and TE'KEL is strikingly obvious. It is very reasonable therefore that it was specifically from that event that Daniel discerned the end of the 70 years.

  But the wrong assumption that "the 70 years" mean the same period everywhere in the Bible is exactly what the WT is building upon.

  For a certainty. The Society claims that Zechariah 1:7, 11-15 & 7:1-5 refer to the same 70 year period though that 70 years actually runs from the destruction of Jerusalem (587) to Darius' decree to finish the temple rebuilding in his fourth year (517). (The angel's words at Zec 1:12 make it clear that that 70 years had not yet ended in 519BC. Zec 7:1-5 adds weight to this as Sharezer and Regem-melech were sent to ask the priests if the fasting that commemorated the destruction of the temple and the death of Gedaliah should now end, and the priests confirm that this fasting had continued for 70 years (this was Darius' 4th year, 517BC, 70 years after 587.) To its own detriment, the Society also applies the 70 years of Tyre to the same period. Insight (Volume 2, page 1136) states:

  "Since the nations mentioned in the prophecy of Jeremiah were to “serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (Jer 25:8-11), this suggests that both the prophecy of Isaiah and that of Jeremiah related to Nebuchadnezzar’s campaign against Tyre."

  (you say Jeremiah does, the WT says 1 Chronicles does)

  The difference between me and them is I have a model that makes Jeremiah harmonious with 1 Chronicles and they do not.
  
  As a side point, the "70 weeks of years" should be not confused with the "70 years".
• 

  Narkissos

  Jeffro,

  Specifically Daniel 9:2 says that Daniel "discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."
  
  Daniel was familiar with Jeremiah's writings, and therefore would have seen the clear fulfilment of Jeremiah's prophecy regarding the end of the 70 years by the events of Daniel chapter 5. The parallel between Jeremiah 25:12 and the meaning of ME'NE and TE'KEL is strikingly obvious. It is very reasonable therefore that it was specifically from that event that Daniel discerned the end of the 70 years.

  Then why does he refer the "seventy years" to the "devastations of Jerusalem," which haven't come to an end by "the first year of (the legendary) Darius the Mede" (9:1) -- and will be truly terminated neither by the first return from exile (Ezra), nor by the rebuilding of the temple (Zechariah) or the city walls (Nehemiah) over the next century (v. 25)?

  Daniel's only point in bringing up the 70 years is precisely the expansion of this period into 70 weeks of years (cf. Leolaia's post above). Interestingly the singling out of the first "week" suggests that he has the notion of a 50-year rather than 70-year exile, as already pointed out.
• 

  Jeffro

  Then why does he refer the "seventy years" to the "devastations of Jerusalem," which haven't come to an end by "the first year of (the legendary) Darius the Mede" (9:1) -- and will be truly terminated neither by the first return from exile (Ezra), nor by the rebuilding of the temple (Zechariah) or the city walls (Nehemiah) over the next century (v. 25)?

  It doesn't say that they hadn't ended, it said that Daniel 'by the books, discerned their fulfillment'. This wording certainly allows for the interpretation that Daniel realised the 70 years of Babylon's domination had ended, in keeping with the context of Jeremiah chapter 25 and Daniel chapter 5. The word for 'devastations' (chorbah) does not mean complete depopulation and does not by necessity refer specifically to the exile. However, yes it is definitely fair to say that there is a duality of fulfilment which leads into the discussion of the 70 weeks of years.
  
  Whatever the case, scholar is still way off.
• 

  AlanF

  Narkissos said to scholar pretendus:

  : You can't have it both ways.

  Why not? Doubletalk is the Society's "spiritual food", and doublethink lets JWs swallow it.

  AlanF
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro.

  Oh boy! Those dem wiley poztates are very confused over the seventy years. Wt scholars in conjunction with the FDS provide a simple coherent understanding of these periods.

  1. The seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah are all linked together by direct quotation to one period of desolation-exile-servitude to Babylon. This period was a period of domination by the Babylonian World Power and ended with its downfall and a new World Power, Medo-Persia. The land of Judah was according to Scripture or prophecy to be desolate, without and inhabitant, and object of astonishment, it enjoyed a sabbath resting and was cursed place. The period has a precise or datable beginning and end as attested by biblical history and secular history.

  2. The seventy years of Tyre referred to by Isaiah is a separate period altogether from the other seventy years. This period merely coincides with that of Jeremiah 25:11 whereupon Judah and her neighbours were under Babylonish domination. As Professor Delitzsch says that the period was 'periodized'..coincides with the seventy years of Jeremiah". Tyre's seventy years are indefinite because it is likened to the days of one king so it omits the precise chronological data that is applicable to the former. The only common element that unites both these periods is the fact that Judah and Tyre for a period were subject to Babylon's domination as prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah.

  scholar JW
• 

  IP_SEC

  Scholar,

  Could you answer me a question? hmm?

  If tomorrow, the watchtower came out and said, "The date of Jerusalems destruction was 58whatever besides 607." What would you do? Would you change your mind then? hmm?

  Yes I know its just a hypothetical, irrelevant question in your mind, but just humor stupid old me. And just answer the question, yes or no please.

  Matt
• 

  Jeffro

  The seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah are all linked together by direct quotation to one period of desolation-exile-servitude to Babylon. This period was a period of domination by the Babylonian World Power and ended with its downfall and a new World Power, Medo-Persia. The land of Judah was according to Scripture or prophecy to be desolate, without and inhabitant, and object of astonishment, it enjoyed a sabbath resting and was cursed place. The period has a precise or datable beginning and end as attested by biblical history and secular history.

  Rest assured scholar, you are wrong. Several people have given ample evidence in this thread that you have neither validly disproved, nor for which you have provided an authoritative alternative. Your model causes a rift between Jeremiah and Daniel; mine does not. The 587 date is fully consistent with the bible and co-incidently ratifies biblical history of the Judean kings, completely consistent with contemporary babylonian, egyptian and assyrian history for the entire period of Judean kings. You appear to have ignored information on this that I have posted previously.
• 

  City Fan

  Hi there Scholar

  The seventy years referred to by Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezra and Zechariah are all linked together by direct quotation to one period of desolation-exile-servitude to Babylon.This period was a period of domination by the Babylonian World Power and ended with its downfall and a new World Power, Medo-Persia

  Could you use all that scholarly brainpower and take 70 years off 539BC. What year do you calculate it to be?