They never has the spirit, think of how the founders treated their wives.. Russell the jellyfish and Rutherford the drunk adulterer, to begin with
Good point as usual Magnum PI, thanks !
When did WT lose the spirit?
by Smiles 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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truth_b_known
I think a better way of posing the question would be "When did the Watchtower lose it." "It" being the beginning of of the end for the Watchtower. I know when I saw it. Things started unraveling when the powers that be (Governing Body) started taking any joy out of being a Witness.
It started with little things. Conventions shortened. Food service stopped at Assemblies and Conventions. Circuit Assemblies went from two 2 day assemblies to one 2 day and one 1 day.
The next bit of joy that was removed were large gatherings. As a kid I loved the congregation picnics. The whole congregation would show up to a park and have a huge potluck cookout. Sometimes we would do bonfires on a beach. People would bring instruments and play music together.
I realize a lot of what I wrote was through the eyes of my child self. It just seems like there were good times. Then the Governing Body killed any joy that was left.
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Sea Breeze
For sure by 1935 when they shut out people from being able to have "forgiveness of sins" by means of the blood of the New Covenant. (Mt. 26:27-28)
"The... other sheep...are... not even justified". - WT 38 pg. 104-105
"ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.....ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves". - Mt. 23: 13-15
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Rivergang
TD
from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the pinnacle for the JW's occurred during the age of the "New World Society" during the 50's and 60's.
I believe you are correct, together with the reasons you advanced for saying so.
Other than that, I cannot quite get my head around the OP's position of somehow pretending they ever had a "spirit" that could ever be lost in the first place!
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Anders Andersen
One premise can heap blame upon self.
The other premise allows us to blame Watch Tower.
This is a false dichotomy, and unhelpful too.
I am now an atheist. I do not believe in any kind of spiritual entities. And I can still blame Watchtower for deceiving me with lies and half-truths, and blame them for taking JWs minds hostage.
With or without 'the spirit' Watchtower can still be blamed for what they do.
And (former) JW can also still wonder what biases and flawed mental processes made them join or stay. Once they recognize the mechanics of that, they are better equipped to not fall for something similar later.
Watch Tower lost the spirit...
Blame Watch Tower, not yourself.
This is an important valid coping mechanism for those of us that have suffered stigma and abuse at the hands Watch Tower.Is it really helpful for people to continue believing half of what harmed them before?
Those who continue to believe in 'the spirit' and Watchtower having it at some point in time, may fall for the same trap again: they may join yet another (harmful) religion that claims to be the sole possessor of 'the spirit'. Or they may go back to Watchtower if they perceive JW 'have the spirit' back again some time from now.
Either 'the spirit' exists or not. If not, it's not helpful to pretend it does.
If 'the spirit' does exist, some evidence about its whereabouts and activities would be welcome.
You're right though in that some ways to approach (doubting) JW may be more helpful than others. It heavily depends on the person though. Some may be sensistive to contemplating whether or not Watchtower 'has the spirit' as you suggest. Others are more sensitive to other topics, such as evidence that mankind existed long before 4026BC, dishonesty and coverups, (lack of) evidence for the existence of JHWH, evidence for the (lack of) divine inspiration of the Bible, etc.
There is no 'one size fits all' approach.
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Sea Breeze
I am now an atheist....Those who continue to believe in 'the spirit' and Watchtower having it at some point in time, may fall for the same trap again...Either 'the spirit' exists or not. If not, it's not helpful to pretend it does.
If 'the spirit' does exist, some evidence about its whereabouts and activities would be welcome.Anders Anderson, I'm curious as to what brought you be an atheist? Have you ever looked at the problems with a materialist worldview? What exactly is it about materialism that attracted you to it?
P.S. I enjoy most of your posts
- SB
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Anders Andersen
@Sea Breeze,
When I was still a JW I came across a conversation between a theist and an atheist.
Theist claimed: life, the universe are way too complex to come into existence by chance/accident. Therefore a Creator must exist.
Atheist replied: A Creator must be at least as complex. Therefore the Creator must have a Creator too...and so on and so on. If an exception is made for the Creator (is complex but doesn't need a Creator) you should at least accept that we can apply that exception to the universe as well.
This struck a chord with me.
One of the main arguments for me believing in Jehovah was the whole "every house has a builder". And now I had to find something more, as that argument didn't seem to hold up by itself anymore.
So I set out to find evidence (testable, objective) evidence that would confirm my beliefs were true.
I sought evidence that shows Jehovah must exist. Found none.
I sought evidence Adam and Eve were created around 6000 years ago. Only found a lot of evidence that showed this story wrong.
Same with Noah's flood around 4000 years ago.
Evidence that shows the Bible is inspired, or at least without contradictions, mistakes or misinformation....only found evidence that shows the Bible is anything but flawless or inspired.
Lacking any evidence to properly support my religious beliefs, these beliefs vanished.
What was left was no belief in any gods, aka atheism.
Interestingly, I have always believed JW are very rational believers whose beliefs are based on evidence (unlike other believers, who 'just believe'). This is also the Watchtower narrative. Sadly enough, JW may be even more 'just believing' than some of the more sophisticated believers out there.
And JWism seems to be very Materialistic to me too. Living creatures don't have a soul, miracles are often sort of explained by invoking natural or physic processes applied by God at just the right time and place.
Anyway, it's not that Materialism atttacts me per se. It's just that I don't see any reason to believe in anything for which no evidence seems to exists, or which effects on our physical world can not be measured or confirmed in any way. Whether or not matter as we know it is all there is and what makes us us doesn't really matter then.
I don't believe in any gods for the same reason monotheists believe in all 'other' gods.
After I became an atheist I have read Pure Christianity and Why Materialism is Baloney. Both were utterly unconvincing to me.
What problems with a materialistic worldview do you think are most problematic?
What alternative worldview do you think is more useful or correct?
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oppostate
well, OP your premise is wrong to start
Also I don't see where God's Spirit would be with any man made organization or corporation. Only people, actual individuals are said to be anointed by Holy Spirit.
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Phizzy
" It's just that I don't see any reason to believe in anything for which no evidence seems to exists, or which effects on our physical world can not be measured or confirmed in any way".
Your journey to that conclusion mirrors mine, exactly. I now label myself, if a label is demanded, a Happy, Humanist, Rationalist, Atheist.
Believing in something, or trusting that something is true, without Facts and Evidence that will stand ANY scrutiny and challenge, is simply silly. It is also indicative of having the mental problem, called " Delusion".
As The Bible, and its god, and much more about it, have been debunked, and thoroughly discredited, by Scholars and Experts of the Fields under discussion, we need to start to use the Art of Critical Thinking, and hone our Rational Mind.
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Sea Breeze
Atheist replied: A Creator must be at least as complex. Therefore the Creator must have a Creator too...and so on and so on. If an exception is made for the Creator (is complex but doesn't need a Creator) you should at least accept that we can apply that exception to the universe as well.
Anders, are you familiar with how assumptions frame logical processes? The original assumptions in logical deductive / inductive arguments determines the trajectory of sometimes large and impressive lines of reasoning that can easily lead to irrational, absurd conclusions. It is quite fascinating to me how it works.
Look at the statement: A Creator must be at least as complex [as the complex universe he allegedly created]. Therefore the Creator must have a Creator too.
Notice how the conclusion assumes that the "Creator" had a beginning like the universe did (ie. big bang expanding universe observations) However, the God of the bible claims to be without beginning, self existing, uncreated. This is a consistent view with what we know about the observable world we live in where cause and effect processes are well established... indicating a First Cause.
If a person tries to assume that the universe is self existing and uncreated, that is illogical because we observe cause and effect in it as well as an expanding universe which indicates a beginning by simply rolling the clock back.
A First Cause existing outside (and inside) of our time dilation is a more consistent view than other competing views. Theologians call this a "Transcendent First Cause". Einstein proved that time can easily be manipulated.
I don't see any reason to believe in anything... for which no evidence... on our physical world can not be measured or confirmed in any way.
First of all, I think atheists/materialists believe in immaterial things all the time. In your efforts to explain your attraction to materialism you used a number of immaterial things.
- Consciousness is not physical
- Information is not physical.
- Logic is not physical.
- Reason is not physical.
- Ideas are not physical.
- Concepts are not physical.
- Morality is not physical.
- Time is not physical
- Truth and untruth is not physical.
- Codes are not physical.
So, lots of things exist that are non physical. A defense of materialism is kinda like a person arguing against the existence of air while he is breathing.
Furthermore, if as I assert that a Transcendent First Cause (Uncaused Spirit) is a better explanation than assuming a self existing, uncaused universe, then why can't there exist other spirits (including our own) that do have a beginning but are also transcendent?
Researching the following terms will provide a lot of evidence for the existence of an immaterial "self consciousness" : 1.) Near Death Experiences 2.) Examples of Terminal Lucidity
Thanks for your effort in responding.
- Sea Breeze