~pats Herk's pointy little head, for being so oblique...~
Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2
by hooberus 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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herk
Little Toe,
~pats Herk's pointy little head, for being so oblique...~
Explain why it is that so many trinitarians feel they have to attack the messenger when the real problem is that they can't cope with the message.
Herk
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LittleToe
There's no explanation due. You weren't attacked, and certainly not because of your message (or lack thereof).
Explain to me this - why do so many Unitarians have to attack the messenger...?
Since my last post, and the first half of the preceding one, were in jest, why don't you answer the questions that I asked in "seriousness", instead of throwing up a smoke screen in the form of a tantrum?
I'll repeat them for your convenience:
May I just ask three questions that I would seriously like your answer to:
- How do you deal with the fact that Jesus never refused worship?
- How do you deal with Steven addressing Jesus, whilst in the presence of God, using similar terms to that of his Lord on the cross?
- What is your opinion of the Holy Spirit - person, force that Father and Son use, or something else?
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herk
Little Toe,
Here's a suggestion, if you really are interested in answers to your questions:
Just re-read what I've written in this thread. Better yet, skip what I've written and just get out your Bible and read all the biblical references I've given.
Due to your sarcasm, which is totally uncalled for, I seriously doubt that you are interested. In case I'm wrong and you're anxious to know the truth about God and Christ, you'll find the answers in the same inspired book where I found them.
Herk
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LittleToe
Herk:
Do you want me to start quoting your own sarcastic comments? I'd fill the page.
In all seriousness, I would like to see your opinion, in a few short paragraphs.
I may well still disagree, but that's my perogative, as it is yours. -
stillajwexelder
hey guys -- come on -- calm down -- I have calmed down on the trinity -- I also appologized to little toe for being bigotted -- an always remember sarcasm is the lowest form of wit -- I feel like being sarcastic to trinitarians but at least we can offer points of view -- we could not do that in the Watchtower now could we
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herk
Little Toe,
I didn't join this thread because I was looking for a fight. If that's what you want, go find somebody else. I put a lot of work in what I contributed here, and you want to tear it all apart without even reading it and by focussing on what you perceive are flaws in my personality. I'm eager to debate the topic with anyone on the basis of the Bible itself, not by engaging in tit for tat over who's the better saint online. If you had done any measure of serious reading in this thread, you wouldn't have to ask the questions you posed. You would have picked up the answers several times.
I've asked several questions myself. While choosing to ignore them, you want me to answer your questions. How fair is that?
What is your answer to any of the following questions? You've ignored every single one of them.
If Jesus is God, was Moses also God? Both are described as mediators "between" God and the people?
An angel, Moses, David and others in Israel were appointed by Almighty God to serve as God to the people. Since there can be only one Almighty God, and he refuses to share his glory with another, why must we assume that Jesus is God in a way different from other leaders of Israel?
Since Moses foretold that the coming great Prophet was to be a man like himself, taken from his own countrymen, why is it so hard to see that Christ is both man and God in the same sense that Moses was?
When Jesus performed miracles the people marvelled and gave glory to God, not to Jesus. That is completely compatible with the centuries old Jewish concept that God is One Person only. What basis is there scripturally for changing that inspired concept held by Abraham and all other faithful Jews after him?
These questions are merely a start to all I've asked. Be a little fair and try answering from the Bible at least these few. If my questions don't deserve attention, neither do yours.
Herk
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BornAgainGirl!
Do you really believe that sound logic allows for multiplying the members of the Trinity instead of adding?
I don't truly believe that, no. Why would we multiply God the Father x God the Son x God the Holy Spirit? It was another way of looking at it though, wasn't it? But then again, why would we add...to get 3...when we all agree there is only one God? LittleToe is right:
I hate seeing the concept of God being brought down to mathematics, even if He is the great mathematician.
God is way beyond our comprehension...beyond any math.
Now, back to the topic at hand. To better explain, I am going to quote from a book, which says it quite well.
"We must not think of God as divided into parts. In the realm of God's creatures, three individual human beings cannot properly be called one man. The men are three separate beings, not just one. Although God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God is one being, not three. The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit would be less than God if one of them were separated from the other two persons in any way. The Bible distinguishes among the three, but does not separate them. It does not speak of three parts of God or of a threefold God. God is one. God is triune, three in one; not triplex, made up of three parts." Trinity, by Richard D. Balge pg. 78-79 (Highlighting mine, of course)
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herk
BornAgainGirl,
I couldn't help noticing that the quotation you gave doesn't include even one scriptural reference. The writer makes several pronouncements as if his statements are true just because he made them.
I also could not help noticing how much the man degrades God! And how he contradicts the Bible! First, notice one glaring contradiction:
The Bible distinguishes among the three, but does not separate them.
If the Bible does not separate them, why at Jesus' baptism do we see Jesus in the water, the Holy Spirit descending in mid-air, and hear the Father's voice from heaven? Why do we so often read about "God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"? If both the Father and the Son are God, why does the Bible make a clear distinction and separation by saying only that the Father is God? And where is the Holy Spirit in the context of these verses if there is no bona fide separation of the three?
As for degrading God, notice:
The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit would be less than God if one of them were separated from the other two persons in any way.
In other words, for thousands of years the Jews worshipped only a part of God. They worshipped only the Father or Yahweh and knew nothing about the Son or the Holy Spirit being God. How biblical is that???
How such thinking dishonours the Almighty God who asks, "To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with him? To whom then will you liken me that I would be his equal?' says the Holy One." (Isaiah 40:1, 2)
According to Mr. Balge whom you quoted, we are to view God in the same way we treat someone we view as half a man. The God of the Jews was even less, according to Mr. Balge! He was merely one-third of a God!
No wonder Jesus grieves and the Devil rejoices over what trinitarians have done to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Rather than glorify him as Jesus did, they grossly dishonour him with their ridiculous theories.
I also noticed that you didn't make a single comment about the Bible verses I quoted in my last post addressed to you. I'm being sincere when I ask, Do they have no meaning to you? Do you really prefer what Mr. Balge has to say over what the Bible has to say? I hope you will give an answer.
Herk -
LittleToe
Still:Maybe I should had thrown in a couple of emoticons to make it clear, because (to be totally honest) I'm not phased or upset in the slightest, by Herk. He does seem to have got his knickers in a twist, though
We've played this game before, on a rather major trinity thread that we had earlier in the year. I'm simply interested in Herk's opinion of the questions I raised.
He does a good number on expressing how he feels Christ is "grieved" but has no substance behind his claims.
Herk:
I'd be happy to answer your questions, since you asked me directly - I haven't been evading them, I've simply been enjoying this thread and both sides of the argument.First off the bat, though, you comment to BAGirl regarding Jewish worship. They worshipped God, and it's unlikely they refered to Him as Father. A point worthy of note is the fact that the Pharisees claimed Abraham as their father.
If Jesus is God, was Moses also God? Both are described as mediators "between" God and the people?
As I previously brought up, Moses (as a shadow of Christ) was indeed attributed as being a "type" of God. How is it that Aaron wasn't a "type" of the Word?
An angel, Moses, David and others in Israel were appointed by Almighty God to serve as God to the people. Since there can be only one Almighty God, and he refuses to share his glory with another, why must we assume that Jesus is God in a way different from other leaders of Israel?
Again, I say, this was a typological title. Are you saying that Christ was also a type and that we should look for the Father to come to the earth?
Since Moses foretold that the coming great Prophet was to be a man like himself, taken from his own countrymen, why is it so hard to see that Christ is both man and God in the same sense that Moses was?
Because the bible doesn't claim that Moses was a pre-existant one.
When Jesus performed miracles the people marvelled and gave glory to God, not to Jesus. That is completely compatible with the centuries old Jewish concept that God is One Person only. What basis is there scripturally for changing that inspired concept held by Abraham and all other faithful Jews after him?
None whatsoever, I agree with you. However the people wanted to make him king, and the Pharisees couldn't even see him as the Messiah, far less God (even in a Mosaic sense), regardless of the work that he did. He even appealed to them on this basis, with no response other than a desire to stone him for blasphemy.
I'm not trying to convince you, Herk. I'm perfectly happy for you to have your opinion (and would like to hear it).
Forgive me for calling you on your condescending attitude, once in a while, though. You truly can be obnoxious at times - and please take that as an observation regarding your style, rather than an insult.Now, how about those answers - preferably in summary form, as I am also familiar with the scriptures, and will ask if I am unsure what you are quoting.
In peace, LT