Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

Hooberus,
I wonder how many times I will need to point this out before you see it. The Bible does not say that "the Lord Jesus Christ" is the mediator between God and man. It says "the man Christ Jesus." Thus the Bible uses specific language for a specific purpose. The emphasis is on Christ's relationship with man and his authority to plead in our behalf to a holy God.
But when the Bible tells us that Jesus worships a God who is above him, it says he does so as "the Lord Jesus Christ." And, as you have explained in your other thread, "Lord" is equivalent to "God." So, again, I ask: Please explain why the Bible indicates that one person as God ("the Lord Jesus Christ) within the Godhead worships another person within the Godhead who also is God.
Remember, you are the one who has divided Christ into two "component" parts. And you have stated that it is the human part--not the Lord or God part--that worships the Father.
Herk
nowisee

hello all,
i have read through all of these trinity threads and have the same head-spinning result each time. it seems to me like the doctine of the trinity is like a hologram -- look at it from one side and it looks a certain way -- look at it from the other side and it looks totally different. as a former jw (born and raised and a former pioneer) i think my brain synapses just tend to go in the unitarian direction -- yet i can certainly also see the other side of it as well.
i listened to those who told me that the trinity was essential christian doctrine and if i could not accept it i would be doomed to hell. i struggled and struggled, going back and forth, back and forth.
the Lord provided me with his answer in the midst of my struggle. psalm ll8:8. i am content now to wait and see.
the one thing that i need to know, that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, I know.
best wishes, nowisee
herk

Hooberus,
If you look carefully at Revelation 22:6-8, you will notice that it was an angel, not Jesus, who told John, "Behold, I come quickly." So Jesus is not the only one who used that phrase as you seem to think. I doubt your intention is to prove that an angel is Almighty God!
And as I showed, reputable scholarship establishes that Revelation 22:12 is a quote from Isaiah 40:10. You seem too eager to ignore as of no consequence what others have arrived at through careful study.
You will note that the expressions "the first and the last" and "the beginning and the end" are not always associated with the phrase "Alpha and Omega."
Twice Jesus claims to be "the first and the last," and once God claims to be "the first and the last."
Twice God claims to be "the beginning and the end." Jesus never does.
Thrice God claims to be "the Alpha and the Omega." Jesus never does.
Look carefully at the context to see why Jesus claims to be "the first and the last." In Revelation 1:17, 18, he said "I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. " So, it seems obvious that he meant he was the first and last to be resurrected directly by the Father. God has thereafter authorized Jesus to be the one who raises the dead. (John 5:28, 29) And at Revelation 2:8, Jesus again mentions having been dead and then coming to life again. So, his being "the first and the last" has to do with something specific to his situation.
God the Father cannot die, so being "the first and the last" could not apply to him in the same way it applies to Jesus.
So I think you need to be more careful about how you apply the Scriptures. We can prove almost anything if we ignore the context.
Just as we have absolutely no basis for assuming that an angel is God simply because he claims he will come quickly, we have no reason at all to assume that Jesus is God simply because he uses an expression that his Father uses. God and Jesus cannot be "the first and the last" in the same sense of the expression because, as I mentioned, God cannot die and be resurrected.
Herk
herk

Nowisee,
i listened to those who told me that the trinity was essential christian doctrine and if i could not accept it i would be doomed to hell. i struggled and struggled, going back and forth, back and forth.
My experience was very similar. I appreciate your thoughts.
Herk
herk

Hooberus,
exelder, Don't you know that the trinity is monotheistic? Monotheism is the belief in only 1 God. The Trinity teaches only one God. It does not teach that there is more than one God or that there are three Gods.
If trinitarians are true monotheists, why do they speak of "God the Father" + "God the Son" + "God the Holy Spirit"? One "God" plus another "God" plus still another "God" within "God" = 3 "Gods" in 1 "God," not 3 "Persons" in 1 "God." As meaningless as such gibberish and gobbledygook is to intelligent people seeking truth, trinitarians defend it.
I think it's deplorable what they've have done to the God of the Bible. His true worshippers are monotheists, but trinitarians most certainly are not! They have made a mockery of the true God, dividing him into fractions and then dividing his holy Son Jesus Christ into something like a person with a split personality. How they must make the Devil rejoice due to their foolishness! Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel and all the other prophets saw God as One Person, not three. The same is true of John the Baptist and Jesus' apostles. None of the faithful ancient servants of God ever dreamed that the Messiah would be part God and part man. Moses, for example, said that the coming Prophet would be a man like himself from among his own countrymen. Even after Jesus ascended to heaven, the apostles held on to that picture drawn by Moses. (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:22; 7:37)
And God the Father never hinted to anyone that his Son would be Almighty God himself. When Jesus asked the disciples who they thought he was, Peter was commended for saying "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." (Matthew 16:15-17) Apparently trinitarians don't have that blessing and they don't want it. Instead of accepting the revelation given to Peter by God himself, they prefer what men have revealed to them, especially the so-called "church fathers" who lived hundreds of years after Jesus preached the truth about God.
Jesus glorified his Father, but trinitarians have made a disgraceful mockery of him. How Jesus must grieve when he sees what those professing to be his friends have done to the beautiful picture of the Father that is portrayed in the Scriptures and especially in his own teachings such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount.
I have to say that I grieve too.
Herk
BornAgainGirl!

If trinitarians are true monotheists, why do they speak of "God the Father" + "God the Son" + "God the Holy Spirit"? One "God" plus another "God" plus still another "God" within "God" = 3 "Gods" in 1 "God," not 3 "Persons" in 1 "God." As meaningless as such gibberish and gobbledygook is to intelligent people seeking truth, trinitarians defend it.
Trinitarians do not think of 3 separate Gods (which 1 + 1 + 1 would be). Try this: 1 x 1 x 1 = .....1! This gives us the full volume of God...One God, 3 persons.
herk

BornAgainGirl,
Just about everyone has heard of "God the Father," (1) "God the Son," (+1) and "God the Holy Ghost (or Spirit)." (+1) = 3. Do you really believe that sound logic allows for multiplying the members of the Trinity instead of adding? How many trinitarians do you think you can get to agree with you that your theory--totally new and completely unheard of before--is a proper explanation?
What you are saying is this: One Father times one Son times one Holy Spirit = the "full volume" of one God. Is it really necessary to come up with such a strange theory to define the God of the Bible?
Do you honestly think your theory is anything like what we read in the Scriptures? If so, where? From ages past, the people of God have known him as One Person, not three persons. Why should any of us feel a need to add to what the Scriptures teach?

At Genesis 16:13, 14, we read about a member of Abraham's household, a woman who certainly should have known the truth about God: "She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: 'You are the God who sees me,' for she said, 'I have now seen the One who sees me.' That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [meaning 'well of the Living One who sees me']; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered." (NIV, footnote)

When God appeared to Moses and the elders of Israel, he didn't speak of himself as "We". Instead, he said "I". Why is that so difficult for trinitarians to understand? He told Moses, "Go and gather the elders of Israel together and say to them, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, "I [singular] am indeed concerned about you and what has been done to you in Egypt."'" (Exodus 3:16) Just as Moses was a singular person--"me"--, God is a singular Person--"I".

Moses did not teach the Israelites that God is three! Instead, he told them: "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6:4)

And Jesus never changed what Moses taught about God's oneness! In fact, he said it's the most important commandment! So why should any of us feel it ought to be changed??? "Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is One Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Jesus made no mention and gave no hint of "three." Exodus 33:11 says "the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." God didn't speak to Moses faces [plural] to face [singular]. To help us understand what God is like, the Bible likens God to a "man" [singular] who has only one face, not the faces of three persons.

The prayer of God's people is: "The LORD make his face [singular] shine on you, and be gracious to you." (Numbers 6:25)

Herk
herk

Hooberus,
The trinity teeches that there is only one Almighty God who exists in the form of three persons.
The Bible teaches that Almighty God exists in the form of one person!
Psalm 11:7 foretells that people will someday see God's "face," not his "faces." "For the LORD is righteous, he loves righteousness; the upright will behold his face."
If the biblical concept were three persons, David would have expected to see God's "faces" (plural) upon being resurrected from the dead, and he would have expected to be raised as a Trinity himself. Instead, Psalm 17:15 quotes him as saying, "As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with your likeness when I awake."
David did not envision God as having three left arms and three right arms which would be the case if God were three persons. But he said to God: "In your presence is fullness of joy; in your right hand [singular] there are pleasures forever." (Psalm 16:11; see also Exodus 15:6; 15:12; Psalms 17:7; 18:35; 20:6; 44:3; 45:4; 48:10; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 5:31; etc.)
Jesus promised that the pure in heart will someday see God. (Matthew 5:8) If Jesus meant that they were to see a triune God, then each would also expect to be changed into an entity of three persons: "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when he appears, we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is." (1 John 3:2)
Is it your hope to become three persons instead of the one that you are?
Herk
LittleToe
I hate seeing the concept of God being brought down to mathematics, even if He is the great mathematician. However, if we must:
One Father + one Mother + one Son = one Family, existing with the same nature and distinct from the nature of all other beings.
(IMHO only-begotten means only-child. Others may be adopted, but there will still remain just one that is naturally related)
Herk:
The Bible teaches that Almighty God exists in the form of one person!
Does it really?
Again, that would be your interpretation of it.
Have you received "divine revelation"? Have you conversed with Christ, and hence ascertained his grievances? Whilst you find certain concepts "deplorable", can you not conceive in the slightest that you may have misaprehended the nature of a God who is far above our comprehension?
I suspect the answer to this trinity of questions is "no".
May I just ask three questions that I would seriously like your answer to:
How do you deal with the fact that Jesus never refused worship?
How do you deal with Steven addressing Jesus, whilst in the presence of God, using similar terms to that of his Lord on the cross?
What is your opinion of the Holy Spirit - person, force that Father and Son use, or something else?
herk

Little Toe,
One Father + one Mother + one Son = one Family, existing with the same nature and distinct from the nature of all other beings.
One human Father + one human Mother + one human Son = 3 humans. One Divine God the Father + one Divine God the Son + one Divine God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods. Why is that so difficult to see? It ought to be as plain as the nose on anybody's face.
Have you received "divine revelation"? Have you conversed with Christ, and hence ascertained his grievances? Whilst you find certain concepts "deplorable", can you not conceive in the slightest that you may have misaprehended the nature of a God who is far above our comprehension?
Such questions don't deserve an answer. I've done my best to set forth, not what I think, but what the Bible plainly says. If you can't accept the Bible and prefer to have Christ come sit and talk with you, I'm quite certain you've got a long wait ahead of you.
Herk

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

Share this