Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

hooberus

stillajwexelder said: I wish when I defend the monotheistic viewpoint people would stop labelling me as watchtower brainwashed
exelder, Don't you know that the trinity is monotheistic? Monotheism is the belief in only 1 God. The Trinity teaches only one God. It does not teach that there is more than one God or that there are three Gods.
herk
Hooberus,
If Jesus is Almighty God, and if he worships another Almighty God, then the Trinity does indeed teach that there is more than one Amighty God. What other conclusion is there after reading the following texts?
At Romans 15:6, Paul said that Jesus has a God just as we do. There he urged us to glorify that One who is "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
At 2 Corinthians 1:6, Paul did not urge us to bless Jesus as God. Instead, he wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
At 2 Corinthians 11:31, Paul again mentioned "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus."
In Ephesians 1, Paul twice spoke of the One who is "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory." (Verses 3 and 17)
At Revelation 1:6, we're told that Jesus "has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father."
At Revelation 3:2, Jesus calls someone else "my God."
At Revelation 3:12, Jesus four times calls someone else "my God."
In the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb at Revelation 15:3, Jesus sings to his Father, "Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God, the Almighty."
It should be noted that all of the above texts refer to Jesus' relationship with his God after his glorification.
Herk
hooberus

herk said: If Jesus is Almighty God, and if he worships another Almighty God, then the Trinity does indeed teach that there is more than one Amighty God.

The trinity teeches that there is only one Almighty God who exists in the form of three persons. Jesus has two natures human and divine. Jesus is the same Almighty God as his Father.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Revelation 21:6-7

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. . . . He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Revelation 22:12-20
however Jesus, as a human (man) worships the Father as Almighty just as all humans do. Otherwise you would have a human who is not worshiping the Father.
It should be noted that all of the above texts refer to Jesus' relationship with his God after his glorification.
Yes, and Jesus is still a human in his glorification! He is both God and man. See 1 Timothy 2:5 the word "man" is in the present tense.
herk

Hooberus,
You seem to have missed my point. It is not as a "man" that Jesus is said to worship God. It is as the glorified "Lord Jesus Christ." In your other thread you equated God and Lord, claiming that the Father could not be Lord if Jesus is not God. It seems that you are now saying that God still means God but that Lord does not mean Lord in the divinely ultimate sense.
Herk
hooberus

You seem to have missed my point. It is not as a "man" that Jesus is said to worship God. It is as the glorified "Lord Jesus Christ." In your other thread you equated God and Lord, claiming that the Father could not be Lord if Jesus is not God. It seems that you are now saying that God still means God but that Lord does not mean Lord in the divinely ultimate sense.

The phrase "Lord Jesus Christ" refers to his whole person and not just to the divine componet of Jesus' nature (Though the phrase "Lord" is a title of divinity). The Lord Jesus Christ is a person who is both God and man. The Father is the God of the Lord Jesus because the Lord Jesus Christ is man as well as Lord, just as the "man" Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5) is my Lord and my God because the "man" Jesus Christ is Lord and God (John 20:28).
herk
Hooberus,
If you examine Revelation 22:13 carefully, you will note that the Father, not Jesus, is the one who said "I am the Alpha and Omega."
The Revelation was given by God through Jesus Christ. Therefore, God himself at times is the speaker. He is the One who declares that he is the Alpha and Omega at Revelation 1:8 and 21:6. In Revelation 22, a number of persons are the speakers.
Verses 1-5: The apostle John
Verse 6: John and an angel
Verse 7: An angel
Verse 8: John
Verses 9-10: John and an angel
Verse 11: An angel
Verses 12-15: God the Father
Verse 16: Jesus
Verse 17: The spirit and the bride
Verses 18-19: Jesus
Verse 20: Jesus and John
Verse 21: John
Jesus is not the speaker until Revelation 22:16: "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things for the churches." Here Jesus used the same type of speech that John had used at Revelation 1:9 to denote a change in speaker. Take note: "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker ... "
According to marginal references in the Jerusalem Bible, Nestle-Aland Greek Text (27th edition), the New American Bible, the New American Standard Bible (1973 reference edition), the United Bible Society Greek Critical Text, and several other Bibles, the preceding verse (12) alludes to Isaiah 40:10. There we are told that "the Lord GOD will come with might, with his arm ruling for him." God's "arm" is identified at Isaiah 53:1, 5 as the Messiah, the one "wounded for our transgressions ... bruised for our iniquities." So the Lord GOD is the one who says at Revelation 22:12 that he "will come," and he is the Alpha and Omega of verse 13.
Herk
hooberus

The Speaker in revelation 22:12-13 said "I come quickly"
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:12-13
"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11
"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." Revealtion 22:7
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20
The speaker in Revelation 22:12-13 is "the first and the last"
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:12-13
"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:17-18
"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Revelation 2:8
The speaker in Revelation 22:12-13 said: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:12-13
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27
herk

Hooberus,
The phrase "Lord Jesus Christ" refers to his whole person and not just to the divine componet of Jesus' nature (Though the phrase "Lord" is a title of divinity). The Lord Jesus Christ is a person who is both God and man. The Father is the God of the Lord Jesus because the Lord Jesus Christ is man as well as Lord, just as the "man" Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5) is my Lord and my God because the "man" Jesus Christ is Lord and God (John 20:28).
I wonder if you can see how contradictory your statement is. You say "the Lord Jesus Christ is man as well as Lord." What that actually means is that "man" and "Lord" are not the same. You even admit that distinction when you claim that the person of Jesus Christ has more than one "component," the divine component and the human component.
And so, you continue to miss the point of the text. As Mediator between God and men, Jesus is called "the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5) And you are claiming that it is this "man" component or human side of Jesus' nature that worships the Father, yet the Scriptures clearly show that it is not the human side of Christ's nature, but "the Lord Jesus Christ" who worships the Father. Your explanation above gives all the appearances of wiggling and squirming for an answer, but it is not an answer. So, if the Son is equal to God the Father, please explain why the the God nature of the Son is the "component" that worships the Father.
Herk
hooberus

The two natures exist simultaniously. Though for discussion we discuss the two natures individually, in reality both natures exist simulaniously. Hense the Lord Jesus Christ is human and the human Jesus Christ is Lord. The Father is the "God of the Lord Jesus Christ" becase the Lord Jesus Christ is also a man. Jesus' two natures do not exist apart, hense the Bibles teaching that the Father is the God of the Lord Jesus does not mean that Jesus is Lord in a lesser sense then the Father. Please see my recent post on the "Part 1" Thread where I show that Jesus is the Lord Jehovah in the same sense as the Father is the God Jehovah. The text does not say that the Father is the "God over the Lord only componet of the nature of Jesus Christ" (which might make him a lesser lord), the texts simply say that that the Father is "the God of the Lord Jesus Christ" ie: a person (with two natures).
ellderwho

Careful Hoob, I got a tongue lashing for what your doing. Just kidding Herk

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

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