The Presidential dictatorship was until 1976. After that, the President's ideas were indeed subject to majority vote.
Thanks for the confirmation Euph, I had thought it had changed somewhere along the line.
Brumm
Would Ray Franz be the President of the Watchtower if........
by IslandWoman 30 Replies latest jw friends
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Brummie
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gumby
Plain and simple.......Ray called it as he saw it at the end of his days there.
People who do that do not become president.......only asskissers to the Organisations rules become president.
Gumby
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jst2laws
So do you think it is possible that by now Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place? is no, he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place. This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth. Everything he stood for at that time was good and proper. Who can say he would have caved in 10 or 20 years later to temptation to guide a lost organization the direction he thought to be right for the majority. But his writings and my personal experience with the man tell me he would have either rejected the appointment or accepted it to steer the org to freedom of conscience and person pursuit of spirituality. Everything he stands for is not corporate spirituality but individual spirituality and freedom from corporate control. He was on this track before he left Bethel and that is part of reason he was thrown out. jst2laws
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JT
while all this is speculation is so wonderful and sweet- there is this little problem that ray would have had to face one way or the other-
Does the WT speak for God himself-
if he became president he too like the rest would have been faced with addressing this issue
do i as the new president tell the rank and file we have been Bull Sh!tting you all for the last 120yrs or would he continue to keep up the Lie?
and that my friend sums it up
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IslandWoman
Hi Amazing,
I don't recall Ray saying that in C of C. But, I believe that the events of 1980 would stll have happened, because the weight of the old guard was to great to reverse course. Knorr was to soft. he liked ice cream, not fights.
In the chapter entitled, "Internal Upheaval and Restructure" (third edition) Ray Franz said this on page 87:
"In all fairness to Nathan Knorr, it must be said that he undoubtedly believed that the then-existing arrangement was the right one. He knew that the vice president, the organization's most respected scholar and the one he relied upon to handle Scriptual matters, felt that way. Knorr was basically an affable person, capable of warmth. When he was not in his president's "uniform" or role, I genuinely enjoyed my association with him. However, his official position, as is so often the case, did not generally let that side of him be seen and (again, doubtless due to his feeling that the role he carried out was according to God's will) he inclined to react very quickly and forcefully to any apparent infringement upon his presidential authority. People learned not to do this. For all that, I seriously doubt that Nathan would have gone along with some of the harsh actions that were later to come from the collective body that inherited his presidential authority."
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I had not read that page since 1999, but the sentence about Knorr stuck in my mind. He was President during my youth and I suppose that is why I remembered it. True, it says nothing about 1980 but I think it could be assumed that the events of 1980 may be among those "harsh actions" he refers to.
Also, from the above quote it does not appear that Knorr was soft and did not like fights, at least not at Bethel anyway.
Personally, I am glad it turned out the way it did, with Ray Franz where he is, doing what he does so well ... exposing the Watchtower for what it is. -
Well, I think that if Ray Franz as President could have caused the Society to become a gentler place it would have meant so much less grief to so many there. As for Jaracz, if there was no GB he would not have had any authority.
To my knowledge, the Governing Body concept was developed and promoted by Ray Franz.
The irony of that boggles the mind. The very arrangement he "developed and promoted" was the one that caused him, Dunlap and others to be put out!
Thanks for your input Amazing.
IW
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DannyBear
IW,
****Well, I think that if Ray Franz as President could have caused the Society to become a gentler place it would have meant so much less grief to so many there. As for Jaracz, if there was no GB he would not have had any authority****
Russell saw the need for tighter control over the congregations, thus instituting the colporter/traveling representative to keep the congregations in line.
Rutherford put a halt to the election of elders (congregation servants, overseers)in the congregations, to establish and maintain his (society) control and power.
Knorr the consumate corp man devised the many and sundry paperwork reporting of everything from literature inventory to forms for dfing. Co's and Do's to this day, reporting to the society much like middle management of any large comercial enterpirse.
Almost like clockwork this organization for 120yrs now,has institued procedure and policy to insure its survival.
Iam afraid Ray's even good intentions, would have been subverted, just by the nature of the beast. To reverse the snowball effect of this 6 billion dollar enterprise would have taken more than any one mans efforts.
Danny
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Euphemism
I think your overall point is well-taken, DannyBear, but just for the sake of accuracy:
Russell saw the need for tighter control over the congregations, thus instituting the colporter/traveling representative to keep the congregations in line.
First of all, you seem to be thinking of pilgrims, not colporteurs. (Pilgrims were the predecessors of the modern-day Circuit Overseers; colporteurs were the predecessors of the Pioneers.)
Secondly, I don't believe that the pilgrims were--except perhaps in a very general, suasive sense--a control mechanism. Their job was only to give talks, not to 'inspect' the congregation; and if memory serves, they were only sent to congregations that requested a visit.
Russell no doubt controlled the Society with a firm hand; but, with occasional lapses--such as when he urged the congregations to study his publications rather than the Bible--he showed excellent restraint in not attempting to exercise authority over the congregations, especially considering the reverence in which he was generally held, and the control he could have exerted if he had wished to. Just IMHO.
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DannyBear
Euphemisim,
You may be right....my memory is not what it used to be.
I've been reading James Penton's Apocalype Deylayed and he addressed several of these issues with the early congregations/ecclesia.......but I will have to go back and reread.
Thanks for the correction.
Danny
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IslandWoman
Jst2lws,
Your comment goes to the heart of this great irony that has occurred in the Watchtower.
he was the reason that the gb arrangement took place. This change did not take place because a dissident corp member was looking for a chance to manipulate the political structure and take over. It took place because R Franz was seeking Biblical truth. Everything he stood for at that time was good and proper.
Ah, yes, Biblical truth. This is a noble cause indeed but when it comes to organizing a religious body the NT has fallen flat on its face for 2000 years. Ray Franz' attempt at turning the Society towards an organizational arrangement that conformed to the 1st Century Christians resulted in the ousting of Knorr and the eventual enthronement of men like Jaracz. The NT cannot be used to implement congregational authority, it does not work!
For those who believe the NT is inspired, the placement of elders and Governing Body members today should be viewed as an impossiblity. Why? Because no man today is given the Spirit as those men were in the 1st Century. There is no laying on of hands anymore, there is no obvious manifestations of God's spirit on any man today. The elder arrangement allows many incompetent men to lord over the congregation. While it is hard to find one good man it is impossible to find 5 or 10 spiritually fit good men in most congregations. The Elder arrangement patterned after the 1st Century did not work, in fact it has made things worse in the congregations because even where there are some good elders they many times are held captive by the bad and unloving decision making of the majority!
As for the Governing Body, it too is filled with men who may have been good pioneers or COs but are incapable of deciding policy or doctrine for millions of people. The problem with religious group control is that the group will act like water and find its own level, many times being dominated by those who are the strongest and most vicious, with the followers following and the opposers being silenced. Following the NT in religious organizational matters has failed miserably!
Who can say he would have caved in 10 or 20 years later to temptation to guide a lost organization the direction he thought to be right for the majority. But his writings and my personal experience with the man tell me he would have either rejected the appointment or accepted it to steer the org to freedom of conscience and person pursuit of spirituality.
Ray Franz did not voluntarily leave the Witnesses. Even after he saw all the evils in the Society such as the Milawi debacle etc., the unloving treatment of many brothers, his own dismissal from Bethel, the disfellowshipping of Dunlap and the others, Ray Franz stayed. He remained a Jehovah's Witness attending and participating in congregational meetings etc. and I believe he said he was even being considered for a position in the congregation he was attending. He made no mention that if offered he would turn it down, maybe he would have but in his book he did not say so. ( I would hope that if he had been given the chance to make positive changes in the Society as a President with all the authority Knorr had, that he would have remained and tried to help the publishers who are skinned and tossed about.)
Everything he stands for is not corporate spirituality but individual spirituality and freedom from corporate control. He was on this track before he left Bethel and that is part of reason he was thrown out.
This comment again goes to the heart of this irony. Adherence to the NT caused Ray Franz to initiate the Elder arrangement and the GB arrangement, but today there are no elders in a congregational format in his life. He remains a Christian without those congregational structures he promoted before.
The NT caused him to develop a system that was not practical and became even more destructive than the one he tried to adjust. The irony is that in an attempt to adhere to the congregational structure of the NT Ray Franz helped to invent the GB beast not a more Christ-like religion, this is one of the saddest things of all.
The failed Governing Body arrangement and the many times incompetent and vicious Elder arrangement are the products of the New Testament, the products of Paul's congregational arrangement something which has injured many including Ray Franz himself.
A side note, on the Commentary Press site there is an essay on the Holy Spirit. I don't know who wrote it (maybe Ray Franz?) but it is non-Trinitarian. It is a good essay, one which I recommend to other Christian exJWs who struggle with the question of whether the Holy Spirit is a Person in itself or not.
Thank you for your thoughts on this subject.
IW
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logansrun
Brummie,
Yes, as far as I remember he didnt leave without a fight, he appealed against the Societies decision several times. He wanted to be a JW and keep his position. It was the way they handled/mishandled his case that finally helped him to see it for what it was. If at any time they had acknowledged his rightness and their wrongness (before all the heavy stuff went down) he would have continued in the role set out for him and possibly that would have led to his appointment as President and a reformation unlike they have ever had.
I think you might be confusing two different instances. Remember, Ray did not get DFd when he was deleted as a GB member. Actually, he resigned and didn't put up much of a fight. He didn't "appeal" anything related to his time at Bethel.
Months later when he was in a judicial matter for having a meal with a DFd person he did appeal the decision. Even then he stopped the appeal and just let the Society DF him. If they wouldn't have done so I still doubt that he would have ever become President for he was already in an infamous position and wasn't a GB member at the time anyway.
Remember too that people appeal judicial decisions for various reasons. Ray may simply have not wanted to be DFd -- it does complicate things a bit as so many here know.
Bradley