by IslandWoman 30 Replies latest jw friends
If the Governing Body arrangement had never been implemented could Ray Franz have become the President of the Watchtower after his uncle or Henschel died?
I believe in COC Ray Franz said that if Knorr had been President the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did. So do you think it is possible that by now Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?
Think of the possibilities!!
IW
Island Woman,
You aint right.
Oops..I was in "shizzolater" mode. Now back to the real Brad.
No, Ray would not have become President of the Society -- ever. Just think about it. Position, title, rank and "lording it over the flock" were exactly what Ray was trying to get the Society past. To take ont the position of President would have been the exact opposite of what he would have wanted.
Also, I don't recall reading where Ray says that if Knorr was president the 1980 fiasco wouldn't have occured. Where is that in the book? Also, the GB arrangement was in place for years during which time there was also a WT president, yet you say: "...Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?" Huh?
You aint right
Hi Bradley,
No, Ray would not have become President of the Society -- ever. Just think about it. Position, title, rank and "lording it over the flock" were exactly what Ray was trying to get the Society past. To take ont the position of President would have been the exact opposite of what he would have wanted.
As a member of the GB, Ray Franz had "position, title, and rank", what he was apparently trying to do is cause the Society to conform more to the scriptures and to brotherly love. I don't think he felt that a Presidency as such or a position of GB member would automatically exclude a man from being a Christian, otherwise he would not have taken the position on the GB.
Also, I don't recall reading where Ray says that if Knorr was president the 1980 fiasco wouldn't have occured. Where is that in the book?
No, I did not say "the 1980 fiasco wouldn't have occurred." I said that I believe he said it would have not turned out the same. As for the page and quote, I will try to find it.
Also, the GB arrangement was in place for years during which time there was also a WT president, yet you say: "...Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?" Huh?
Prior to the GB arrangement the Presidency held the power, the sceptor of power was in the Watchtower Presidency. It is this type of Presidency of the Watchtower I am speaking of, the kind that Knorr had before the GB arrangement came and took away the real power of the Presidency.
IW
Ah, conditional history, gotta love it.
Assuming that Fred Franz had still become President after Knorr's death... I doubt that he would have appointed his nephew as his successor. It would seem more likely that he would have appointed another member of the group generally voted with him on the GB.
But who knows? Fred was an intelligent man, despite all his nuttiness, and he might have realized that his nephew was the only person with the brains to run this place.
Interesting to hypothesize what would have happened in that case... maybe a Worldwide-Church-of-God type of complete turnaround?
IW its agreat thought, just a pity it never happened. I agree 100% that he could have been president if things had have gone a little differently. I dont doubt for one minute that he would have accepted that role, he spent months trying to get back in, he would have naturally have reached out for presidency just as any other would.
It would have been great. In saying that I doubt he would have had a major inpact on doctrine since it was a 3/3rds vote thing. Yet at the same time, he couild well have influenced the rest of the GB for the better.
Brummie
Hi Brummie,
In saying that I doubt he would have had a major inpact on doctrine since it was a 3/3rds vote thing. Yet at the same time, he couild well have influenced the rest of the GB for the better.
But if Ray Franz had been President as Knorr was President, with all the power etc., there would have been no worries about a two thirds majority. Knorr was the boss. If Ray Franz had inherited a similar Presidency he too would have been the boss.
IW
IW,
I still disagree. Ray was at the end of his rope the last couple of years on the body -- he even thought about leaving Bethel before any of the heavy stuff went down. I just don't think he would have taken on the Presidency, although there is no way to prove it.
Brummie,
I dont doubt for one minute that he would have accepted that role, he spent months trying to get back in
What? Huh? Would you care expounding on this last thought?
Bradley
Hi IW:
"If the Governing Body arrangement had never been implemented could Ray Franz have become the President of the Watchtower after his uncle or Henschel died?"To my knowledge, the Governing Body concept was developed and promoted by Ray Franz. It came into existence while Ray Franz was there, because he was on the Governing Body for 9 years.
"I believe in COC Ray Franz said that if Knorr had been President the events of 1980 would probably not have turned out as they did."I don't recall Ray saying that in C of C. But, I believe that the events of 1980 would stll have happened, because the weight of the old guard was to great to reverse course. Knorr was to soft. he liked ice cream, not fights.
"So do you think it is possible that by now Ray Franz would have been the President of the Watchtower if the GB arrangement had not taken place?"It possible Ray could have become president of the Society. What is not known is how he would have manuevered and guided the Society. While we know him as an ex-JW, had he stayed, however, it is hard to say if he could have kept the Society on a course of moderation ... or if mean old farts like Jaracz would have run Ray over with fighting and politics. And now ... we will never know. Personally, I am glad it turned out the way it did, with Ray Franz where he is, doing what he does so well ... exposing the Watchtower for what it is. - Jim W.
Brummie,I dont doubt for one minute that he would have accepted that role, he spent months trying to get back inWhat? Huh? Would you care expounding on this last thought?
Yes, as far as I remember he didnt leave without a fight, he appealed against the Societies decision several times. He wanted to be a JW and keep his position. It was the way they handled/mishandled his case that finally helped him to see it for what it was. If at any time they had acknowledged his rightness and their wrongness (before all the heavy stuff went down) he would have continued in the role set out for him and possibly that would have led to his appointment as President and a reformation unlike they have ever had. Like you said, there is no way to prove it, and now we will never know. Its all speculation.
IW, thanks for your response. I didnt realise the president had all the power, I thought even his ideas were subject to the majority vote.
Brummie
I didnt realise the president had all the power, I thought even his ideas were subject to the majority vote.
The Presidential dictatorship was until 1976. After that, the President's ideas were indeed subject to majority vote.
(Of course, now the President isn't even on the GB, so it's a moot point.)
