Just my opinion an 2 cents worth
Are the statistics out yet?
by slimboyfat 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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resolute Bandicoot
Ah... good work friends.
RB.
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Gorb
@blotty every coin has 2 sides.
Some jw.org aspects are not that bad at all.
My opinion it that jw.org is a typical US religion, baseď on production, loyality and obey to the leadership, hardly personal freedom and money and property comes first. A business model, with the American dream as perspective. (Religion, family, practical labor, house, car, wife and children).
And yes, they are a social structure for the rank and file. Attention for the sick and those in need, but only for their own members.
If you can not agree with all of it's habits and rules, there is ony way, that of the extrance.
G.
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TonusOH
I don't like the argument that a desire to see the WTS fail is just hate, or that we should take their good deeds into account to balance out the bad. How many good deeds would balance out the scales of all the damage their shunning and two-witness policies have caused? I don't hate the WTS or any JW. But they actively harm people in various ways, and I wish that would stop. And since their core policies are driving this harm, it's difficult to see how they could stop without such drastic changes as would potentially end its existence.
I don't ignore the issues with other institutions or organizations, but this forum is specifically dealing with the WTS and JWs and my life experience was with the JWs. So my comments will necessarily trend in that direction.
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Hopeless1
Dear Blotty, you said -
‘People are going to make surface level arguments to try and playdown or discredit them just because they don't like them for one reason or another’
There are many people who have good reasons to feel aggrieved over JW’s, -please do not demean, invalidate, discredit or invalidate their pain by making such sweeping generalisations.
There may be a few real Christians amongst JWs, just as there are, I am sure, among other denominations, but I have known a great many Jehovah’s Witnesses who genuinely hated even members of their own religion, ones in so-called ‘good-standing’, for no good reason at all, as well as others, complete strangers to them!
We also have plenty of evidence that their own governing body members personally hate all manner of persons, (most especially ex JWs), in direct conflict with instructions to Christians at Romans 12:14, & 14:17-21.
(Also, please consider that Jehovahs Witnesses by no means lead the world on translating and distributing the Bible)
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Jeffro
slimboyfat:
Jeffro you seem to have two basic responses to JW growth.
You really are getting tedious.
The first is to deny that it exists and say the Watchtower data are wrong.
No. I didn't say that at all. I said, correctly, that the way JWs count 'publishers' increases their stated growth rate at the expense of higher membership figures.
The second is to say that even if the data are correct (the Australian census, for example) it doesn’t count because: disfellowshipping
I didn't say anything 'doesn't count'. I said, correctly, that growth of JW membership in countries specifically considered has been under the population growth. I also said, correctly, that people of other denominations are more free to leave without repercussions whereas there is significantly more pressure for JWs to remain affiliated. And I also said, correctly, that although some other small denominations such as Christadelphians use the similar term 'disfellowship' (for whom it means exclusion from 'breaking bread', which corresponds to 'communion'), they do not actually employ shunning (ergo a false equivalence on your part) for simply ceasing membership (rather than for other specific ‘serious sins’).
and North Korea.
If you don't understand analogies, that's a 'you' problem. 🤷♂️
If you believe that Watchtower growth doesn’t count then why are you interested in tracking it anyway? If you can dismiss all favourable comparisons of JW growth with others groups as either factually wrong, or inconsequential if true, then there is no way the data can ever contradict your starting assumptions.
Strawman argument.
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slimboyfat
I wrote:
The JW numbers look “bad” … until you compare them with most other Christian groups which are in severe decline in the west. Compared with other Christian groups the growth of JWs bucks the trend of decline.
And you responded:
Apples and oranges, just like this time last year. The way JWs count membership inflates their growth rate at the expense of the stated number of members, as explained last year.
I pointed out that census results show JWs growing more than other groups - it’s not just Watchtower figures. So do you still deny that JWs have better growth than other groups? That was the only claim I made. I didn’t make any claim about the reasons for better growth.
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Jeffro
Sigh. 🤦♂️ When you said “The JW numbers look “bad”… until etc”, no one had mentioned secular stats. The subject was the stats as published by JWs. Comparing the stats published by the Watch Tower Society with other measures is ‘apples and oranges’, quite independent from your obsession with the separate fact that other denominations are in greater decline generally (shifting the goalposts). At no point did I ‘deny’ anything. (At least you managed not to lie about what I had responded to this time though unlike your false attribution on page 6.)
I have already demonstrated that the way JWs count membership inflates their stated growth rate, which in any case has been especially poor for 2022, particularly given the pressure to remain.
Also, the type of ‘growth’ JWs have in most secular countries based on secular measures is like having an interest rate on savings that doesn’t keep up with inflation.
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ThomasMore
I am still amazed that despite WTC's exhaustive efforts to prevent anyone from seeing the genuine state of their organization, some still put credence in the annual report. Not only have their methods of counting changed in order to inflate the numbers, they ignore the measurement tools that are necessary to determine their real growth or decline.
They make it impossible to determine the number of KHs that are still being used vs the ones that have been sold.
They make it impossible to determine the number of congregations still active vs the ones that have been dissolved/merged.
They dumb down the amount of time required to count a person as a publisher so that the numbers no longer reflect REAL publishers vs 15 min publishers who were just listed as "active" by Secretaries who did not want to document a decline for fear of the C.O.
They do not publish the number of faders/DFings/DAing which could indicate a trend down or up.
They do not publish the number of deaths.
They do not publish the average age of those baptised.
If I reported stats in my job like WTC reports, I would be fired. As for those who compare them to other religions, please consider that other religions are more honest in their reporting. As for non-JW reports, be aware that many inactive still identify as JWs due to the deep indoctrination stigma of identifying as something else. I did that for years after I left until the shackles completely fell off.
Given WTC's propensity to lie/obfuscate/spin, I am surprised that anyone bothers to read the report at all.
It is clear to me that the ex-JW presence on social media is growing exponentially, and the numbers support that statement. The growing hatred toward anyone that they see as out of step tells me that they are devouring one another.
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JW GoneBad
The results of this 2022 Annual Service Year Report of Jehovah’s Witnesses is very much like a Pet Scan that has been performed on a very sick patient. If the results of a Pet Scan shows cancer growth throughout the body soo bad that the Doctor feels he can't do anything to improve the patient's health...the Doctor will more than likely say to the patient and family to get his (the patient's) affairs in order.
As many of us exJW members know, this year's Service Report doesn't reveal the full extent of the 'cancer' that WT is dealing with...the Service Report is just not that transparent. Suffice to say WT is in very poor Spiritual Health! This next year's 2023 Service Report (Spiritual Pet Scan) will only be worse showing more & more negative numbers...'cancer' having spread more!
How many years does the WTBTS have? Some patients with cancer can survive bedridden for months & years before they succumb to their illness. The fact is WT may be in a 'bedridden' state for many more years...it's ultimate demise will very likely be very slow & painful...the exJW community will see to that...Viva the exJW community!