Why trying to reason a JW out of the cult is a lost cause (and what the solution might be).

by OneEyedJoe 51 Replies latest members private

  • CalebInFloroda
    CalebInFloroda

    It depends on who you are too.

    The Dunning-Kruger effect makes it hard for people to understand where their capabilities really make them capable or where they fail. For instance, though scoring in the top 2% on the past three IQ tests I took, I did not immediately comprehend what this meant for me. Most of my life I've spent believing that everyone is either as intelligent as I am or even brighter. People tend to act this way, as if they are so sure of what they know, and seem to be successful, so why did the IQ tests show different?

    I learned from studying the Dunning-Kruger effect that the opposite happens with people in the nominal range of IQ: the average person sees themselves as brighter than their neighbor, and any information they get that comes their way that seems to run contrary to this belief is rejected as "stupid."

    What does this have to do with this thread? Well, without giving everyone here an IQ test, I've noticed that a large number of posters here seem to think as I naturally do, in the D-K manner: sure of what they believe but open to the possibility that they might be mistaken and that someone else might have so input of value. Again and again I am pretty much amazed to find this here because it is rare in the real world.

    The so-called "ignorant," by comparison, are ignorant of their ignorance. According to D-K, the average person cannot see the brilliance in others, believing it is available only in themselves.

    True, I am not saying everyone on this board can go out today and score on the far right of the Bell scale on the IQ exam, but I am noticing a pattern that seems to suggest most of us who have left the Watchtower appear to have traits that would put many on the higher-than-average level. Look at what we talk about, the depth of our arguments and debates. Compare that to the drivel that comes out of the Watchtower today.

    It is true that most people do things as a reaction, due to emotion. We all do. But even if an emotion is the first response, it seems in many of us it is the logical conclusions we make that has given us the "gas" to move out from the shadows. It is one thing to get up, another to move out, and a whole other sack-of-potatoes to stay away for good. Emotion alone doesn't cut it.

    For now I have a working theory that many of us who leave the JWs for good do so because it is within our nature. We are prone to think a bit more out-of-the-box than the average bear. We aren't smarter, no. IQ is not about being smarter--it's about being innovative with the data you have on hand.

    We had exposure to the same "truths" everyone else in the Watchtower does. But we came to far different conclusions. We left.

    Perhaps others don't leave not merely because emotion governs them more than logic, but because they aren't good with logic. Logical arguments don't work with them because, granted, they get lost. I know some of you have seen the same "deer in the headlights" look I've gotten when trying to explain things to JWs. Their eyes glaze over and they just turn off and stop following.

    Is it all brainwashing? It is just emotion? I think it's because they don't have that something else that contributes to more a mentally enabled person.

    We may not be perfect here. We may not all disagree. But whatever we are, we tend to be logical about it. Notice: I'm a religious Jew, but am I as illogical as other religious people you have met? I seem to be able to be at peace with non-religious folks here. Why? We share logic and critical thinking in common.

    To be honest I don't always like hanging around average religious people because they aren't into theology or other in-depth study of the beliefs we cherish. It's like it's all emotion with them. I sometimes would rather spend time chatting here and even debating with many of you because it is more fulfilling and I learn to appreciate people more.

    So perhaps our dearest friends and family left behind in the Watchtower are there because they cannot think themselves out. Our logical arguments don't appeal to them because only emotion does the trick. And if we are even slightly gifted with critical thinking, then as D-K suggest, most people don't comprehend what we are talking about or don't consider it significant.

    But I still think logic helps many. It did me. But for many, many more a more emotional approach may be what is needed. It is the difference between being scared to learn and curious to learn. I think most of us here are the more curious type.

  • disposable hero of hypocrisy
    disposable hero of hypocrisy
    Thanks Joe, great thread, one I'll be thinking about from now on....
  • Lee Elder
    Lee Elder

    Good post - spot on imo.

    For me, it was the blood issue. Probably because I had seen a number of people die from supporting the policy. It was the first thing I started researching after the generation change in 1995.

    Incidentally, one of the things that we have repeatedly used effectively is to ask a JW how they are going to feel when the WTS finally abandons the blood policy - the same way they have discarded previous bans on vaccines, organ transplants and blood fractions. Particularly if a loved one, friend or a person they have studied with has died over the issue.

    You have to be a pretty cold hearted chap to not react on an emotional level.

  • stuckinarut2
    stuckinarut2

    Fantastic Thread!!!!

    I don't usually have the patience to read really long posts...BUT this was really really great!

    Excellent points and reasoning indeed!

    Thanks for sharing!

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    CalebInFlorida -

    The thoughts on the D-K effect are interesting, but I think it may be something of a chicken/egg question. I myself have always been acutely aware of how little I knew, even while indoctrinated. I often described my college experience by saying "The more I learn the more I realize that I don't know anything." So in that way your experience matches my own, but I don't know if that would always be the case. Something tells me that there's an element to waking up from cult indoctrination that might have a tendency to teach people the lesson that they just might not know everything.

    Also:

    Perhaps others don't leave not merely because emotion governs them more than logic, but because they aren't good with logic. Logical arguments don't work with them because, granted, they get lost. I know some of you have seen the same "deer in the headlights" look I've gotten when trying to explain things to JWs. Their eyes glaze over and they just turn off and stop following.

    I would suggest that it's less that they're just not "good with logic" and more that they have no emotional attachment to logic. You seem to have a strong love of logic, as do I. I love the process of working from a premise to it's necessary conclusions. I love putting the pieces together and making an elegant flow from start to finish. That's beautiful to me, and it's a big part of how I see the world. Not everyone cares about that, though. People see beauty in different things, and if someone isn't interested in logic - doesn't have an emotional response to it like you or I - they're just not going to care that their beliefs aren't logical. The illogical nature of our beliefs was deeply unsettling to you and I. It generated emotion and moved us to action. For others it doesn't generate the same emotional response and therefore leads to no action.

    Lee Elder -

    Incidentally, one of the things that we have repeatedly used effectively is to ask a JW how they are going to feel when the WTS finally abandons the blood policy - the same way they have discarded previous bans on vaccines, organ transplants and blood fractions. Particularly if a loved one, friend or a person they have studied with has died over the issue.

    My wife seems to be impervious to this one, sadly. That particular thought experiment seems quite powerful to me, but her excuse was basically that it was done with good intentions and anyone who died from it would have the hope of a resurrection so it's fine. She also didn't see how that's exactly the same as if a JW were to kill someone for failing to accept their "good news" so that they would have the opportunity to be a part of the resurrection of the unrighteous instead of dying at armageddon. It would be done with good intentions and they'd have the hope of the resurrection, but in that case he'd be blood guilty. Really, if intentions is all that matters, then why were there cities of refuge in Isreal - if someone killed someone but had good intentions they were still blood guilty. Bleh I think I'm getting side tracked...that was a really frustrating conversation with my wife.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Fascinating post. Thank you for sharing those thoughts.

    Sorry for my compulsion to post links, but I think that this story would touch the heart of any who have lost a parent. Even if they haven't, it may still move them.

    www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/coffeeblack.php

  • besty
    besty
    great post thanks.
  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    OEJ: Decisions are made on a purely emotional level. If you're going to convince someone to do something (like leave the cult) that they're reluctant to do, you have to hit upon their core values and something that motivates them on an emotional level.

    How 'bout: Why don't you do the right thing and be the person you're pretending to be?

    Loved the Cliffs Notes

  • prologos
    prologos
    well written OP. so, if we can not touch them emotionally here, we can give them so much food for thought, details on doctrine, that when the stumbling hits hard enough, they will immediately have the details available, or already read to bolster their fast fade, exiting, make it exiting.
  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    Thanks. Fascinating post. It makes me want to really think harder about my mom and her motivations for joining and staying in the cult.

    She's always been extremely emotional over everything! I feel like she spends her whole life being so emotionally overloaded that she can't think logically about anything. She just goes from one emotional decision to another.She's very reactive in her life.

    And, she never went to college which may have forced her to learn more logical thinking. She's intelligent enough, but she stopped at high school.

    So many new thoughts! Thank you for this!

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