Why trying to reason a JW out of the cult is a lost cause (and what the solution might be).

by OneEyedJoe 51 Replies latest members private

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    This got kinda long - CN at the bottom.

    First off - I'm not a psychologist, and I have no formal training in the field. I've also had absolutely no success in waking up my wife, so take this for what it's worth. I thought this might be a helpful perspective for some, though, so I hope someone can find it useful.

    I read an article (here's one on the same topic) years ago about decision making being emotional not logical, but didn't give it a tremendous amount of thought. My therapist recently referred to the idea that came from this study and I've been thinking about it off and on since. It turns out that no matter how much we might protest that a particular choice we made is based on well thought-out logical arguments, if you dig deep enough there is an emotional motivation. In reality, the typical decision making process goes like this: decide what you want based on emotion, then rationalize the decision with your powers of reason.

    In my case, it was nice to believe that my decision to stop being a JW (as well as the many decisions that lead up to it) was based firmly in reason, but that's just not the case. I'm not suggesting that the JW cult is all that it claims to be, nor am I suggesting that it's a better life to live as a JW. What I am saying is that it's just not as simple as "It's not 'the truth' so I'm leaving." I'd logically decided long before my awakening that god was not necessary to explain the world, and that it was entirely possible that he didn't exist. I actually liked that idea better - evolution and cosmology have such elegant solutions to the problem of our existence when compared to "god did it." Why, then, did I not leave in my late teens? I hadn't yet found a reason to leave that was based in emotion.

    I was uncomfortable lying or misrepresenting the truth, and that made me uncomfortable with the cult because I could never explain my involvement to anyone that found out that I was a JW without either resorting to misrepresentation/lies or saying something like "it makes sense, I'm just not explaining it well" to end the conversation. This emotional discomfort with untruth was what lead me to have a desire to know what was true. That desire lead me to research outside information in spite of the phobia indoctrination. When I did, I pushed past the child abuse scandals, the 607 stuff, the critique of the watchtower's use of circular reasoning, on and on. Don't get me wrong, all that stuff disturbed me deeply, but I didn't have enough of an emotional connection to it for it to cause me to make a decision. Then I found black-and-white proof that I had been lied to. There is at least one statement in the creation book that can be characterized in no way other than an outright lie. There are several that are, at best incredibly hypocritical (quotes taken out of context, etc) and hypocrisy is another thing that I absolutely loathe (another reason that I was uncomfortable with JW beliefs and rules). That did it. My emotional abhorrence of lies and hypocrisy woke me up, not my powers of reason.

    I often see people on the forum making suggestions that essentially boil down to "explain logical flaw x in doctrine y and they'll have no choice but to wake up!" Unfortunately, that's just not how it works. For someone to wake up they have to see being in the cult as a violation of one (or more) of their core values. Some people just don't care that much about absolute accuracy/truth/etc as I do, so they can look at the same lie in the creation book and say "I guess that just doesn't matter to me that much" (paraphrasing one of my wife's responses). People without children might hear of the child abuse and it doesn't hit home enough to matter. People who are comfortable with hypocrisy can be elders and enforce rules on the R/F that they know would not be applied to them due to their rank, and it doesn't bother them. People who feel that their connection is with god and claim to take everything the cult says with a grain of salt can learn of the false prophecies of the past and say "they were just harmless guesses, everyone knows that 'no man knows the day or the hour.'"

    It seems to me, if you really want to wake someone up, you have to know what drives them. What's their emotional connection to the cult? What emotional reason would be enough to cause them to rationalize leaving? That's the only thing that will do it, not cold facts and logic. Knowing this could completely change your approach to waking someone up. What woke you up won't wake up someone else because they have different values. You may be an expert on 607/587 and it may be trivially easy for you to prove the dates are wrong and therefore prove that the org is a false prophet that was never appointed by god. There's black and white proof that can't be argued with, but if that proof doesn't hit someone at their core values in a way that creates an emotional need to leave the cult, then it will do nothing. On the other hand, if someone values love above all else, the considerably more subjective evidence of a lack of love in the congregation may wake that person up in a heartbeat. In this case, it would only be after the emotional reaction to the lack of love that this person would care about all the facts and proof that it's a cult. They've made their decision, and now it's time to rationalize it. Up until that point their decision was to stay, so they weren't interested in information that they can't use to rationalize that decision.

    Unfortunately, getting at someone's core values and motivation isn't as easy as you might think. Most people aren't aware of their core values, or certainly not all of them. Least of all cultists, because they've had the cult's core values superimposed over their own. For me to have the realization of my true motivations for leaving it took about a half hour of questioning by my therapist wherein he essentially played the part of a kid asking "why?" over and over again (there's a bit more to it than that, but that's sure what it felt like). Getting to really know what makes them tick at the deepest level will probably give a much better chance of waking someone up than simply disputing doctrine or showing evidence of a lack of love, or what have you.

    I think this difference in core values combined with differences in first-hand experience with the cult is what ultimately makes it easier to wake up some than others. People who value truth, love, justice, etc are probably more likely to wake up than those that value duty, loyalty, or honor. That's not to say that it's impossible to demonstrate that the cult is disloyal, but depending on someone's experience in the cult it could be considerably more difficult than demonstrating that the cult is dishonest. Also, I suspect that it's infinitely easier to wake someone up if you share a number of your core values - in this case what woke you up will probably work for them, and making the case in a way that affects them will feel much more natural to you.

    Cliffs Notes: Decisions are made on a purely emotional level. If you're going to convince someone to do something (like leave the cult) that they're reluctant to do, you have to hit upon their core values and something that motivates them on an emotional level. It's only then that they'll be interested in information that supports the decision to leave, because it's only then that they'll be actively trying to rationalize that decision. If only it were as simple as pointing out the flawed logic in one doctrine cults wouldn't exist.

  • pronomono
    pronomono

    I think you've got a pretty good idea of the ties that bind. Looking at myself, I feel the same way. And observing others, I see similarities. What I've noticed, the emotion that holds people in is usually the emotional ties to friends and family. In my particular case, it was so strong that my logic matched emotion by convincing myself that I was the one with the problem. How could all my friends and family be wrong? I must be the one that doesn't get it. So I built my faith upon the faith of others.

    It was only when I removed my love for family from my decision to remain a JW that it all came crashing down. It wasn't a solid foundation of faith. Now it's just a matter of figuring out how to remove myself with the least damage to the relationships that I cherish so much.

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy
    I agree with knowing what drives someone emotional. When I talk to my son about things of what's write and wrong he can relate but if I mention something about evolution for example his eyes glaze over.
  • freddo
    freddo
    That is a very helpful and well written post OneEyedJoe. Very thought provoking - thank you!
  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    My emotional abhorrence of lies and hypocrisy woke me up, not my powers of reason.

    I believe that sums it up. It's true what you say but consider this... What are said emotions based on? If someone attacks science and you react, isn't that emotion based on the proof science has given you? If you attack the cult and someone else reacts, aren't their emotions based on the things they were taught in the cult?

    Science can have gaps and if someone directs their attack at the gaps, we openly admit that we don't know everything. Cults and specially cult members, have been firmly convinced they have an answer for everything and that their reasoning has no gaps. When you admittedly point them to one, they see no gap and your reasoning is false. The foundation for their emotions remain intact.

    My wife also has an abhorrence for lies and hypocrisy. She began to display such emotions during her teens and up until her late 20s. At some point she became inactive. Later on, she began attending meetings again to please her mother. Exposure to the cult made her think that the hypocrisy was not part of the WT but rather imperfect brothers around her (a WT teaching). She was utterly convinced the the problem was localized and not systemic (also a WT teaching) All of a sudden the lies and hypocrisy are justified thru the reasoning of the WT. Her feelings towards lies and hypocrisy are very much alive, except that the emotional reactions are channeled away from the WT. She can measure even me with those same standards and will not accept a tiny lie from me. No that I lie to her but I now how she feels. However, I pointed out the blatant lies of the WT but those are not a problem in her view, even when she accepts that there are lies.

    Steven Hassan says in his book that the cult replaces the normal personality with a cult one. I am not going to remember the exact words he used but It says that cult members have their free will intact, except their decision making abilities have been twisted in the ways of the cult. Therefore every decision they make, everything they feel, they own (in their view) and therefore is precious.

    I believe that reasoning with them plays a role. May be is not everything but it can not be underestimated. Remember that while we are here typing, while we are at work, or in essence, while we are taking care of the cult member almost full time, there are thousands of people up in NY doing nothing but looking for ways to keep the machine alive 24/7/365. That is their whole job in life. Is difficult to fight against such well entrenched system. But is not impossible.

  • Mad Irishman
    Mad Irishman

    Live and Let Live.

    People do what they want to do. That is the bottom line.

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    STA - I wasn't trying to suggest that reasoning with someone wouldn't play a part in waking them up, just that it has to be on a topic that's emotionally entrenched enough that they'll be internally obligated to act upon the conclusions that they come to based on the reasoning. You're absolutely right that it has a large part to play, especially when someone's tie to the cult is the security of knowing that they're absolutely correct about everything - punching holes in the doctrine can punch holes in that security blanket and cause them to become disillusioned. What I'm saying is that no amount of reasoning will do anything if it's not related to something that impacts a person's core values.

    Also, in the case of your wife, she may hate dishonesty, but not all lies are created equal (in spite of the watchtower's insistence otherwise in their official policy). A lie about something she doesn't care about on an emotional level may not do it. It may have to be personal. She has to go beyond "they've lied here" which she can probably overlook by telling herself that she must not understand and she's not that interested in the topic anyway so she won't bother to research. She has to think "they've lied to me." At least that's how it was with me. It's definitely more difficult due to the cult's hijacking of the normal mental processes, to be sure. But if you're not even hitting on something that motivates the person emotionally, you're not going to get a result even before you hit the thought-stoppers.

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel
    Ok. got it. I think I agree is another way to say the same thing.
  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe
    Haha pretty much. Sorry. I tend to get wordy.
  • carla
    carla
    Excellent post!

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