Since this allows for available evidence and the Federal Court system could legally request it from the Ausralian authorities for a case of prosecution in the US, the problem would become whether or not the Court rules this as being admissible evidence. Since the entity in question is regarded as an international corporation with representation here in the US and not an individual or a non recognized organization, the possibility seems very plausible. Here a good link concerning the law and securing evidence from sovereign countries and is in clear language for the layman : http://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1742&context=lawreview
One of the most important questions.
by Lemonp 28 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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OrphanCrow
max: I think it would come down to whether a reasonable person would think the material was too detailed for a legitimate church disciplinary purpose and that a paedophile would get off reading it.
If a paedophile will get off on the material is actually irrelevant in determining the exploitation of the child victim. The material produced is always assumed to be expolitative if it does not fall under point (a) of 228E.
Reasonable people have already determined that the investigation into child abuse claims is not necessary or helpful. The guidelines for reporting child abuse (iPreventing Child Sexual Abuse Within Youth-serving Organizations: Getting Started on Policies and Procedures) identifies investigation by volunteers in organizations as harmful to the legal process.
Determining the amount of detail collected in a judical process investigation is not a job for lay persons to be involved in. Any amount of probing for detail is wrong.
defender:.. So are you saying then that legally, any nonprofessional person without the skills to investigate abuse, who asks a child about what happened during abuse and makes any notes is producing child pornography?
Yes, I am.
Notes don't even have to be taken, images don't have to be made. The real, live child is sitting right there. The judicial process itself is a pornographic act all on its own.
There is no need whatsoever to ask a child what happened during the abuse once the child comes forward. No need at all. Once the claim has been made, any attempt by someone to probe for details, other than those trained and authorized to do so, should be seen as illegal. It may be suitable for a parent to privately ask their own child what happened, but under no circumstances should that child be required to give details to an outside person other than a professional. Requiring a child to give testimony to the JW elders should be a crime all by itself - under pornographic laws that pertain to minors.
Any attempt to do so should result in charges of producing pornographic material, regardless of what form that child's experience is preserved in - even just sitting and listening to the child's sexual experiences is pornographic when it is done by non-professionals. Hell, the JW judical system itself allows for a live, real life pornographic experience. No images needed, and no notes needed - it is sitting right there in the room and is delivered through live audio - from the mouth of a minor.
If simply making notes of what has happened in a case of abuse is producing child pornography, how come the JW elders are not right now being charged with producing child pornography?
Not yet. But it doesn't mean they couldn't be.
Once it is established how the judicial process works inside the JWs, it becomes a place from which to move forward on matters of the law.
The wheels of justice grind slowly. But they do grind.
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OrphanCrow
defender: If simply making notes of what has happened in a case of abuse is producing child pornography, how come the JW elders are not right now being charged with producing child pornography? It is now a matter of public record:
I have been giving some more thought to what you have said, defender, and I think the fact that the process that the elders take in matters dealing with sex with minors is now a matter of public record, could very well be what exposes the pornographic nature of what is happening.
I am glad it is on public record. What has been described is abhorrent. I would never, never, allow my daughter or son to go through what the victims of the JWs have had to. Never should a child be subjected to that. Or a woman. My gawd - the way that women have been compelled to give sexual details to men is unbelievable.
This may be a legal way of stopping the barbaric practice of compelling a minor to give sexual details to religious men or anyone who claims religious authority.
Once all the facts have been gathered and evidence given on the JW judicial process, maybe then the long arm of the law will have some teeth to do things like seize all the child abuse files that are in the WTS' possession on the grounds that it is pornographic material that deals with minor sex. And, the WTS can be stopped from ever collecting those details again.
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defender of truth
Interesting thoughts.
Could's and should's will not make any difference though.
Can you contact the police in Australia and report to them that elders are taking notes of sexual details they should not be asking about?
No, the police wouldn't be interested (I think).
The situation looks hopeless in Australia, read the following page, it seems they can't even agree on what exploitative material is..
"However, three years later (mid 2008) it appears such work has been proceeding at snail's pace, or that the project has been abandoned due to inability to achieve Australia-wide consensus about what should and should not be proscribed by such legislation. (Update: During 2010-2011, 3 States made changes to their legislation, however while a few changes were an improvement, overall the result is increased inconsistency.)"
http://libertus.net/censor/laws/celaws.html
You might want to read this too:
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umbertoecho
ABibleStudent. How do you think this Royal Commission came into being?
People like me, wrote to the authorities, signed petitions, sent emails and generally wouldn't shut up. That's how it happened, make a lot of noise and get in touch with local government, in state after state, until it gains momentum...........
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umbertoecho
We were all scared too. Many good people caused this.......
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umbertoecho
Australia has close ties with America and Britain. There are extradition treatise between us and I wonder what impact that could have in terms of sharing legal matters. I don't know much about this sort of thing. I do know that WTBTS is desperately moving most of it's records to places like Canada. But why, I don't know. Canada is still closely linked to Britain in so many ways.
I better stop drinking this brandy coffee I'm so talking crap at the moment.....and the bottle is nearly empty.
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ABibleStudent
@ umbertoecho, My comments were directed to individuals who haven't written to politicians. Since you did write to politicians and your efforts did result in the formation of the Royal Commission, I congratulate you and everyone who contributed to the formation of the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. How were you able to motivate other people including ex-JWs to write to politicians? What do you feel was crucial to capture the attention of politicians?
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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